#arpnetworks 2012-12-31,Mon

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Who	What	When
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up_the_irons	whoa, lots of scrollback	[12:10]
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brycec	You're welcome! (not that I had anything to do with it..)	[15:53]
RandalSchwartz	RandalSchwartz mutters "happy new year"	[15:53]
brycec	brycec yawns at 5pm	[15:54]
RandalSchwartz	yeah - only 4pm here but it's over the top for some folks	[15:54]
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mercutio	it's been the new year for ages over 13 hours :/	[16:03]
staticsafe	UTC is the only relevant time zone :P	[16:03]
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mercutio	you mean gmt?	[16:03]
staticsafe	UTC	[16:03]
mercutio	isn't utc just a reference for other time zones UTC was used beginning in the mid-twentieth century but became the official standard of world time on January 1, 1972. oh i didn't know it being an official standard	[16:04]
staticsafe	root@hellhound ~ # date -u Tue Jan 1 00:04:55 UTC 2013 :)	[16:05]
mercutio	# date -u Tue Jan 1 00:06:02 UTC 2013 your click is behind oh actually... i think they're about the same i think my irc client is ahead	[16:06]
staticsafe	all my servers are synced via NTP	[16:06]
mercutio	most of mine arc it seems the box i irc on isn't though	[16:07]
RandalSchwartz	Tue Jan 1 00:07:35 UTC 2013	[16:07]
mercutio	my irc client +37 seconds to you	[16:07]
phlux	Tue Jan 1 00:07:43 UTC 2013	[16:07]
RandalSchwartz	running ntp, so that should be close	[16:07]
phlux	same	[16:08]
mercutio	2 seconds diff between you two from my perspective	[16:08]
RandalSchwartz	can't seem to run ntp on any box that has to be PCI compliant though	[16:08]
mercutio	there of course can be latency between irc servers/connections	[16:08]
RandalSchwartz	so instead I run ntpdate once a day. dumb solution	[16:08]
staticsafe	mercutio: yes indeed RandalSchwartz: wtf	[16:08]
RandalSchwartz	yeah - they keep flagging ntpd on freebsd as "bad" so the only solution is to not run it	[16:09]
mercutio	openntpd? or that huge bloated one?	[16:09]
RandalSchwartz	they just flat the open tcp port flag	[16:09]
mercutio	oh	[16:09]
RandalSchwartz	so i've had to turn that off idiots	[16:09]
mercutio	does ntp use tcp?	[16:09]
RandalSchwartz	UDP	[16:09]
mercutio	oh i thought it may have a fallback like dns	[16:10]
RandalSchwartz	but they apparently tweak it, and it comes back, so they say "you're bad" idiots PCI compliance is a joke	[16:10]
mercutio	welcome to politics :)	[16:10]
RandalSchwartz	but my $client has to pass, or not take credit cards from $bank	[16:10]
mercutio	heh	[16:10]
RandalSchwartz	some of the stuff makes sense but there's a huge pile of WTFery mixed in	[16:11]
mercutio	does anyone use the calculator key on keyboards?	[16:12]
RandalSchwartz	I mean, yeah, not storing CVVs or unencrypted PANs, all good. what's "The calculator key"	[16:12]
mercutio	the picture of a calculator	[16:12]
RandalSchwartz	RandalSchwartz looks at his keyboard I have none of those	[16:12]
mercutio	it's on most modern keyboards	[16:13]
RandalSchwartz	I have a very modern keyboard macbook pro 17-inch	[16:13]
mercutio	miune is where print screen would usually be :(	[16:13]
RandalSchwartz	late 2011 or so	[16:13]
mercutio	oh, laptops don't count	[16:13]
RandalSchwartz	sure they o	[16:13]
mercutio	they don't even have a number pad!	[16:14]
RandalSchwartz	sure they do it's just buried in the middle of the KB	[16:14]
mercutio	my media controls are like that	[16:15]
RandalSchwartz	.. https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3332788?start=0&tstart=0	[16:15]
staticsafe	O_o	[16:17]
RandalSchwartz	RandalSchwartz wanders off to drive home	[16:17]
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mike-burns	There are keyboards attached to computers that aren't laptops?	[19:50]
mercutio	what? you mean all in one? like mac ? imac and amiga	[19:51]
mike-burns	Hah, I dunno. I've only used laptops and servers for the past five or 10 years.	[19:52]
mercutio	is macbook pro the g5 one? really?	[19:52]
RandalSchwartz	g5?	[19:52]
mercutio	i have a laptop, i use it a few times a year g5 cpu	[19:52]
RandalSchwartz	my macbook pro is an i7	[19:52]
mercutio	oh that's powerbook	[19:52]
RandalSchwartz	... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Pro	[19:53]
mercutio	oh they never actually did it i7s in laptops are usually i5s renamed as i7s	[19:53]
RandalSchwartz	no	[19:53]
mercutio	and i5s i3s	[19:53]
RandalSchwartz	real i7 the previous one I had was an i5 and I feel the difference	[19:53]
mercutio	Intel Core i7-2620M @ 2.70GHz Average CPU Mark Description: Socket: BGA1023, Clockspeed: 2.7 GHz, Turbo Speed: 3.4 GHz, No of Cores: 2 (2 logical cores per physical), Max TDP: 35 W dualcore i7? :) well that's cos i5 is i3	[19:54]
RandalSchwartz	I have 8 threads	[19:55]
mercutio	really wow	[19:55]
RandalSchwartz	yes	[19:55]
mercutio	which cpu? this was early 2011 cpu	[19:55]
RandalSchwartz	... 2.4 GHz (2760QM) quad-core Intel Core i7 Sandy Bridge with 6 MB on-chip L3 cache yes	[19:55]
mercutio	oh cool	[19:56]
RandalSchwartz	"MacBookPro8,3"	[19:56]
mercutio	yeh it sucks how intel do that oh i7 normally has 8mb cache or more i think	[19:56]
RandalSchwartz	actually - it says I have 2.5 ghz so it's even better than that	[19:57]
mercutio	oh heh http://ark.intel.com/products/65719/	[19:57]
RandalSchwartz	and yes 8 MB L3	[19:57]
mercutio	desktop i7 is 3.5 ghz and 8mb cache oh you have 8mb cache cool	[19:57]
RandalSchwartz	this is according to system update	[19:58]
mercutio	do you have hd4000 video? my laptop is damn slow	[19:58]
RandalSchwartz	AMD Radeon HD 6770M and Intel HD Graphics 3000	[19:58]
mercutio	core2duo 2.4 ghz or something with 4gb ram and 8gb ram? and the retina screen thingy?	[19:59]
RandalSchwartz	no - looks like 1024MB for the first, and 512 for the second	[19:59]
mercutio	oh	[19:59]
RandalSchwartz	no retina screen this wasn't from 2012 :)	[20:00]
mercutio	i7 with 1.5gb ram? ahh so it's 1680x1050?	[20:00]
RandalSchwartz	just 1920x1200	[20:00]
mercutio	oh cool that's better than my laptop i only have 1680x1050 :( i like how apple are pushign resolutions up	[20:00]
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mercutio	at least it has dedicated video card :) the new macs look ok err mac laptops oh but they only take 8gb ram :( Optional 16 GB RAM configuration available at time of purchase only oh they do take more	[20:01]
RandalSchwartz	yeah I have mine baxed out	[20:03]
mercutio	you jhust have to order it at time	[20:03]
RandalSchwartz	maxxed out at 8	[20:03]
mercutio	16gb is standard for reasonably heavy users now if buying new	[20:03]
RandalSchwartz	I've never gotten up to all of that.	[20:03]
mercutio	but laptops often only have two slots	[20:03]
RandalSchwartz	I guess if you're running vm's or something	[20:03]
mercutio	yeh that's cos you're using a laptop 8gb sticks are cheap for desktops now you can have 32gig for prob USD $200?	[20:03]
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mercutio	it makes a big diff to everything really. well, 16gb does compared to 6gb that's why i upgraded from ddr2 to ddr3 but that means you have to replace cpu... motherboard.. etc to too i wonder how much these mac laptops cost $3500 ouch	[20:04]
RandalSchwartz	very price appropriate, given hardware features no more "mac penalty"	[20:05]
mercutio	desktops are a lot cheaper :)	[20:06]
RandalSchwartz	sure, and have fewer things	[20:06]
mercutio	more things you mean?	[20:06]
mike-burns	Different purposes.	[20:06]
mercutio	more expandability bigger monitors, bigger ssds etc	[20:06]
RandalSchwartz	but if you price it out, feature for feature, mac hardware is very competitive	[20:06]
mercutio	mike: depends if being used as a desktop too yeh you can't get good screens on normal laptops at least i haven't seen one recently	[20:06]
RandalSchwartz	the trouble is that people tend to compare cheap crappy desktops against macs	[20:07]
mercutio	macbook air is not too expensive	[20:07]
RandalSchwartz	and yeah, so cheap crappy desktops are cheaper. duh.	[20:07]
mercutio	cheap crappy? i wonder how much my desktop is worth it'd probably be $2000 or something to replace every bit probably slightly more than that oh wow it's easy to forget how much computers cost when you add things over time like i got a good video card, so i can do high res... which it does but good video cards are still expensive and even then i'm only sitting at 70 fps	[20:07]
mike-burns	It's still slightly surprising to me how many different things people use computers for.	[20:09]
RandalSchwartz	I use mine to heat my room	[20:09]
mercutio	facebook? google	[20:09]
mike-burns	Like, how I'd never do someting that involves high res.	[20:10]
mercutio	i realised the toher day, i never use my laptop without the internet like if i didn't have internet for some reason, i'd think of my laptop as being useless mike: reading pdfs?	[20:10]
mike-burns	I use my phone for PDFs.	[20:10]
mercutio	is your phone high res?	[20:11]
mike-burns	Doubtful.	[20:11]
mercutio	i have to scroll like mad on my phone to read pdfs.	[20:11]
mike-burns	It's just more convenient on the metro.	[20:11]
mercutio	my tablet is slightly better metro?	[20:11]
mike-burns	Tunnelbana.	[20:11]
mercutio	train?	[20:11]
mike-burns	Sure.	[20:11]
mercutio	what are trains like for internet these days	[20:11]
Lefty	yay, 1.5G of RAM makes for a happy VPS	[20:12]
mercutio	heh my vps went from 256 to 768mb but i'd prob be fine with 256 still	[20:12]
Lefty	I went from 768 to 1.5 but I'm running a redis server, a mysql server, and a bunch of tmux	[20:12]
mike-burns	The subway offers no wifi here. The only other train I take is the airport shuttle, and that does offer free wifi.	[20:12]
mercutio	whereas my desktop swapped heavily on 6gb	[20:12]
Lefty	all of those like moar RAM	[20:13]
mercutio	that said, i don't use chrome on my vps lefty: tmux isn't memory hungry	[20:13]
Lefty	heh, I get cranky if my desktop has any less than 16 these days	[20:13]
mercutio	but yeah the other two could be	[20:13]
mike-burns	Web browsers take crazy amounts of RAM. I blame animated GIFs.	[20:13]
Lefty	tmux consistently is the highest ram consumer on my box	[20:13]
mercutio	i'm actually only using 8.4 gig on my desktop atm	[20:14]
mike-burns	Is the tmux RAM measurement being reported properly? That is, is it instead reporting all the RAM of its child processes?	[20:14]
mercutio	one chrome window on it's own is using 450mb	[20:14]
Lefty	mike-burns: entirely possible	[20:14]
mercutio	mike: it doens't report child processes normally? at least not under openbsd or linux	[20:14]
Lefty	I didn't look into it that deeply, but the box was usually a few hundred megs into swap most of the time	[20:15]
mercutio	14600 root 2 0 668K 1332K sleep kqread 0:00 0.00% tmux PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE WAIT TIME CPU COMMAND that doesn't seem memory hungry to me 13146 _mysql 2 0 40M 15M idle select 0:30 0.00% mysqld mysql takes up a bit more	[20:15]
Lefty	before I rebooted, it was reporting ~300M	[20:15]
mercutio	that's light mysql usage though wow it's probably leaking then	[20:16]
RandalSchwartz	mysql? friends don't let friends use mysql.	[20:16]
mercutio	actually i'm using tmux on my irc	[20:16]
Lefty	times four or so users	[20:16]
mercutio	and it's been running ages ben 16396 0.1 0.3 4572 2440 ? Ss 2012 7:58 tmux -2 that's linux instead that time	[20:16]
RandalSchwartz	apparently, I'm not your friend yet. :)	[20:16]
mercutio	2.4 mb resident?	[20:16]
mike-burns	I'm extremely pleased with the trend of ditching MySQL for Postgres.	[20:17]
mercutio	i wonder how long it's been running	[20:17]
RandalSchwartz	if you insist on mysql compatible, use mariadb but otherwise, postgresql, yes in either case, please move away from the oracle frankenserver	[20:17]
mercutio	i was thinking the other day, mysql is terribly slow surely their query optimisation could be a lot faster on modern computers? err could lead to much faster performance like current performance compared to ideal performance	[20:17]
Lefty	mysql sucks on modern hardware	[20:18]
mercutio	i imagine there's lots of complications of such but like say you have 16gb ram	[20:18]
Lefty	well, it sucked on old hardware too, it's just now modern hardware tends to have lots of cores and RAM	[20:18]
mercutio	and 2gb database	[20:18]
RandalSchwartz	mariadb is drop-in-completely-replacement for mysql monty promises such	[20:18]
mercutio	it doesn't really matter if you use 8gb of ram and do things to reduce cpu bottlenecking etc	[20:19]
RandalSchwartz	and it's better/stronger/faster so absolutely no reason to run mysql. evar.	[20:19]
mercutio	randal: mysql comes bundled with operating systems though?	[20:19]
RandalSchwartz	apt-get is hard to type?	[20:20]
mike-burns	Which OS bundles mysql?	[20:20]
mercutio	does ubntu have maria now? mike: ubuntu?	[20:20]
mike-burns	Odd.	[20:20]
RandalSchwartz	... https://downloads.mariadb.org/mariadb/repositories/	[20:20]
mercutio	ubuntu, centos, openbsd, etc all have mysql support easily	[20:20]
RandalSchwartz	serious, google please don't make me google for you	[20:20]
mike-burns	Is it useful for browsing the Web and, I dunno, whatever else Ubuntu users do?	[20:21]
mercutio	it doesn't have my ubuntu version	[20:21]
RandalSchwartz	which version of ubuntu? hardy to precise	[20:21]
mercutio	yeah i use quantal	[20:21]
RandalSchwartz	yeah, be weird. get source then	[20:22]
Lefty	no mariadb in my repos for 12.04 on arm	[20:22]
mercutio	lefty: you have to get it from external repository	[20:22]
Lefty	nor x86	[20:22]
mercutio	but that's why people use mysql	[20:22]
Lefty	well, I still have to get mysql from an external repo	[20:22]
mercutio	when it doesn't matter it's easier to use mysql	[20:22]
Lefty	at least on our centos boxes	[20:22]
mercutio	when it does matter then people are like "why should you use mariadb" there was mariadb and another one that i was thinking about migrating to	[20:23]
mike-burns	Postgres.	[20:23]
mercutio	nah	[20:23]
Lefty	my mysql usage at home is just a toy database	[20:23]
mercutio	i've used postgresql in the past	[20:23]
Lefty	at work, though, that's a different story... we do some heavy mysql scariness	[20:23]
mercutio	but lots of people are more familiar with mysql	[20:24]
Lefty	slaves of slaves of slaves	[20:24]
mercutio	lefty: with redis?	[20:24]
Lefty	in fact, the only alerts I've got for this on-call was mysql replication breaking	[20:24]
RandalSchwartz	couchbase 2.0 looks pretty damn cool	[20:24]
Lefty	mercutio: we use a lot of redis, too, and a lot of mongo	[20:24]
mercutio	why does mysql insisit on using disk for queries anyway	[20:24]
RandalSchwartz	materialized views	[20:24]
mercutio	hmm wonder what one i looked at percona	[20:24]
RandalSchwartz	I may be deploying it for $client	[20:25]
mercutio	i thik that was it looking at wikipedia so is mariadb a lot faster than mysql in common usage patterns?	[20:25]
RandalSchwartz	monty claims so	[20:27]
mercutio	but like 50% faster?	[20:27]
RandalSchwartz	I. Don't. Know.	[20:27]
mercutio	ahh	[20:27]
	looks like most of the improvments only happen with 16+ cpu cores and still 20% from worst to best	[20:34]
Lefty	heh, that'd help our workload the biggest problem with mysql replication is that slaves are entirely singlethreaded so we can have giant boxes with lots of cores etc, and they don't get used at all and replication still lags I can't imagine maria is any better in that respect, so we'll probably stick with mysql	[20:37]
mercutio	yeh i'm sure it'd help heavy heavy workloads	[20:39]
Lefty	we have mysql boxes that are 16core	[20:39]
mercutio	hmm, i didn't find anything about replication can you do replication int he app? the	[20:39]
Lefty	yes, but nobody wants to touch it it's very, very legacy	[20:39]
mercutio	i was mostly wanting stupid web applications to go faster :/	[20:40]
Lefty	it's slowly being replaced by modern systems that use better storage technologies though by "better" I'm using it in the loosest sense of the word	[20:40]
mercutio	yeh	[20:40]
Lefty	mongodb didn't get production-ready until 2.2 anything before that was fucked hard	[20:40]
mercutio	fwiw in these benchmarks percona seems better than mariadb at 2, 8, 16 cores weirdly the difference is less at 32 cores then percona is way way faster at 64 core 4200 versus 2600 tps	[20:41]
Lefty	neat Lefty found out the other day that redis can't handle more than 32G of RAM allocated to it	[20:42]
mercutio	heh you must have a lot of data	[20:42]
Lefty	we generate a lot of billing data	[20:42]
mercutio	a while back i read about memcached not scaling	[20:43]
Lefty	and the funny thing is that the billing group always says "oh, we'll only need a couple of gig of RAM", then they fire of a few million subscriptions and wonder why redis fell over off, too	[20:43]
mercutio	due to memory being way worse with random reads than linear i think you're meant to use low latency memory if you want random queries	[20:43]
Lefty	anything, really I mean, I can't think of many workloads that consist of sequentially reading large amounts of data into RAM, then reading it right back out again	[20:44]
RandalSchwartz	you don't know my clients. :)	[20:44]
mercutio	oh i think it was the facebook discussion	[20:44]
Lefty	I can see reading a lot of data, then accessing it randomly	[20:45]
mercutio	lefty: blogs?	[20:45]
Lefty	Lefty shrugs	[20:45]
mercutio	i also read at one point that l3 cache isn't a lot faster than memory but has lower latency.. i assume cos cache is sram it's like when memory went to sdram the peformance improvement wasn't that great because the cpus couldn't make that good use for the burst memory speed although that changed over time curiously i was reading just now that facebook got better performance from shifting from tcp/ip to udp/ip. i wonder how much better performance could be with infiniband	[20:45]
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Webhostbudd	infiniband is gimicky from what i heard although definitely better than gige	[21:30]
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mercutio	what's gimicky about it? it's significantly lower latency than 10 gigabit ethernet it's also cheaper especially if you want to go over 10 gigabit throughput then it's got things like rdma to reduce overhead whereas infiniband guarantees in order packet delivery	[21:56]
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Webhostbudd	well, i've heard 10gige performs better than 20gig infinibamd however, i don't know the network layourt	[23:37]
mercutio	infiniband native? or doing ethernet emulation?	[23:51]

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