#arpnetworks 2019-05-17,Fri

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WhoWhatWhen
mercutioyeah it's apparently getting more popular over time
apparently they're trying to be stable and recent at the same time
arch linux manages to be pretty stable with rolling release
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dne"SFTP has been disabled by default due to security considerations" uhm, ok [00:36]
mercutioyeah sftp is considered obsolete and insecure by openbsd too
scp is better
there was a bug in sftp recently
[00:47]
dneI think you're mixing them up - scp is an old hack, sftp is not [00:53]
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mercutiooh? [01:11]
antIt would be very interesting to me to learn why SFTP would be considered obsolete and insecure. Unfortunately, I was unable to find information about that on Google. [01:22]
dnemercutio: openssh 8.0 release notes: "The scp protocol is outdated, inflexible and not readily fixed. We recommend the use of more modern protocols like sftp and rsync for file transfer instead." [01:29]
mercutioah sweet so i was around the wrong way [01:37]
dneand actually the recent scp issue, CVE-2019-6111, was on the client side [01:46]
antAlright :-) [01:52]
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brycecNext "poll" on Ceph storage -- Thoughts on SAS 15k drives?
From my research thus far, they provide very low seek rates and higher throughput than conventional rust, thus offering a relatively affordable middleground between disks and SSDs
Not to mention they ought to have a longer longevity, and their lower density (they seem to peak at 2TB) makes it easier to achieve a "Many smaller drives" solution for better server IOPS and lower recovery times.
(Correction: It's 15k drives that peaked at 2TB. There are, of course, 7200 drives in many-TB capacities. But if I'm going SAS, I'm going 15k, or 10k minimum)
It's true that brand-new SAS drives are more expensive than SATA counterparts, but if I've already resigned myself to buying used... Plus I know of at least one off-lease reseller that will ship fully-assembled, meaning less work for people I don't trust to do work right.
(I haven't abandoned the idea of all-flash, which is not too out of reach price-wise. But I still have concerns about SSD longevity.)
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acf_is it a problem with number of write cycles? [14:40]
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mercutio10k sas isn't a bad way to go [14:57]
brycecacf_: Yeah write cycles are the longevity concern I have.
I think I've arrived at doing both ssd and hdd, either in separate pools or Ceph's recent cache tiering (depends how my benchmarking and testing goes). This should get me something with plenty of performance room.
By splitting it into two pools, like ARP has done, I can spent money and resources better, only where they're needed -- I'm not wasting SSDs capacity on lesser VMs, which leaves the relatively smaller SSD capacity and IO for the more important tasks. And the stuff on the spinning rust should still feel plenty snappy.
And, hopefully someday, I can scale to more OSD servers and care less about IOPS on a budget.
*I can spend money (I swear, I speak English well)
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mercutioi'd still suggest you try and determine what your iops load is like
tehre are high write endurance ssds
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13704/enterprise-ssd-roundup-intel-samsung-memblaze
oh this is newer ones
hah the intel optane is 60 daily writes per day, and samsung 860 dct is 0.2 daily writes per day
but yeah it varies quite a lot...
[15:50]
brycecmercutio: "try and determine what your iops load is like" I have! And I have pretty graphs to show for it too. (Spent a chunk of yesterday instrumenting the current VM hosts, pushing metrics into Influxdb, putting a shiny Grafana dashboard on it etc. [16:06]
mercutiooh sweet
it's always much harder to do things on small scale
[16:06]
brycecMost of the time, we sustain 50-100 write IOPS, reads are lower. Current hardware/setup seems to peak about 400 IOPS both read and write. [16:07]
mercutioif you could just throw lots of servers at it then iops would keep going up [16:07]
brycecBased on back-of-the-napkin math/estimates (formulae provided by various Ceph persons), this pool should see around 1 million IOPS for the SSD-backed storage, and about 5000 IOPS for the HDD pool. [16:07]
mercutiooh wow that's pretty low
you need to write 3x
sata disks doing 5000 iops would require a lot of disks
[16:07]
brycecOops typo, peak write IOPS is around 1000.
"you need to write 3x" Not sure what you mean here.
[16:08]
mercutio3 way replication means each write happens to 3 hard-disks [16:08]
brycecYeah, I accounted for that [16:09]
mercutioand you still think 5000 iops?
how much are you giving each disk?
[16:09]
brycecThat 5000 IOPS is 200 IOPS * 12 drives * 4 servers * 0.64 (a magic number from one of the Ceph devs) [16:09]
mercutio7.2k won't usually do 200 iops [16:09]
brycec(And 200 IOPS is a conservative estimate) [16:09]
mercutioit's relaly not conservative [16:09]
brycecmercutio: When have I ever said 7200? [16:09]
mercutiooh ok
yeah 15k sas will
10k sas tends to be about twice as fast as 7200 rpm sata
but 15k sas is only 50% faster
err 50% faster than 10k sas
[16:10]
brycec"only 50% faster"
I don't consider "50%" an "only"
eg: The difference between driving 100kph and 150kph is quite noticeable
[16:10]
mercutioi think why 10k sas tends to outperform 7200 rpm sata by so much is both better command queueing, and firmware that is more designed for high iops
true
but 50k vs 100k is bigger difference
i think it's around ~3msec latency on 15k sas, ~6msec, 10k sas, ~12msec on 7200 rpm sata
of course it's like .15msec latency on ssd
hmm wikipedia on iops actualyl has iops figuers for hard-disks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOPS
[16:11]
BryceBotIOPS :: Input/output operations per second (IOPS, pronounced eye-ops) is an input/output performance measurement used to characterize computer storage devices like hard disk drives (HDD), solid state drives (SSD), and storage area networks (SAN). Like benchmarks, IOPS numbers published by storage device manufacturers do not directly relate to real-world application performance. Background To meaningfully describe the performance... [16:14]
mercutiothey even confirm my nearly 2x improvement from 7200 rpm to 10k
they're showing less than 50% improvement from 10k sas to 15k sas
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anisfarhanaI love arpnetworks!
Since 2013!
And keep going now.
Thank you #arpnetworks
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up_the_ironsanisfarhana: lol you're welcome
BryceBot: my opinion on refurbished drives is they are a complete waste of time. We have droves of refurbs because we actually would send our failed drives back that were still under warranty (many had 5 year warranties, so we made the manufacturers honor that). The drives we got back would all fail frequently, and keep in mind, the drive you get back doesn't have any of the warranty left. Only 90
days. It's really just blind robbery.
Over the years, on SATA, we used Seagate, Hitachi and Western Digital. Seagate was the worst. Hitachi was a lot better. Western Digital has also been pretty good.
[21:01]
m0undsyeah, HGST/Hitachi was always our most reliable too
but they got eaten by WD i think
[21:07]
mercutiois toshiba still around?
i really feel like more hard-disk competition would be good
[21:07]
m0undsumm, i think so [21:08]
mercutioi dunno what happened to 10k sata hard-drives [21:08]
m0undsthey still do some ssds, afaik [21:08]
mercutiothere was velociraptor... [21:08]
m0undsyea, they were expensive though [21:08]
mercutioyeh [21:08]
m0undsthey did 15krpm 2.5" too
but i think the bulk of consumer use is 5400/5900rpm anyway
[21:08]
mercutioaffordable 10k 1tb sata disks would be nifty for things like games
yeah for movies that doesn't matter
[21:08]
m0undsyep
i got some WD reds that are nice for bulk storage - replaced some ancient (6 year old or so) 2TB HGST disks that were no longer made and i couldn't find replacements for
but consumer ssds have gotten so damned affordable, i ended up replacing one of my 1tb 7200 rpm disks with a 1tb ssd for like $120
[21:09]
mercutioreal
i know 500gb are getting cheaper now
but thought 1tb was still a bit far out
i got a second nvme ssd.. i have three now
[21:10]
m0undsnot at all - the newer sandisk w/marvell chipsets go one sale for $120-179 [21:11]
mercutioone isn't being used though.. it's only 128gb, and i need another pci-e adapter [21:11]
m0undsyeah, i have a 540 or some-odd boot SSD on my workstation and a pair of 1TB ones for games and such [21:11]
mercutioi went intel instead of samsung for my last sd [21:11]
m0undsand then a 4TB for the remainder of games that i don't want to load fast (my flight sim stuff takes a ton of space) [21:12]
mercutioa bit lower raw performance, but samsung don't even deliver the speed they say [21:12]
m0undsyeah, i had bad luck w/sammy stuff in the 540 chipset guys [21:12]
up_the_ironsSo USPS was supposed to deliver my X1 Carbon today, but it also says "Arriving Late" on the tracker. Thanks fuckers.. [21:12]
m0undshad a couple failures under warrant [21:12]
up_the_ironsHopefully tomorrow [21:12]
m0undslame [21:12]
mercutiowhat size ssd you getting with it up_the_irons ? [21:12]
m0undsthe worst are when they say it's out for delivery or something, then you don't hear anything, then at like 0200 it says "arriving late" cuz it went out on the wrong truck [21:12]
mercutiospeeds are getting good enough with ssd that reliability is more important than performance [21:12]
up_the_ironsgot a 6th gen, WQHD screen, 256GB SSD, 8650U CPU and 16GB of RAM for a bit over $1100 [21:13]
mercutioand i feel like intel are less likely to fail than samsung [21:13]
m0undsawesome, great deal [21:13]
mercutionot bad [21:13]
up_the_ironsyeah! [21:13]
mercutiowqhd is 2560x1440? [21:13]
m0undsyeah [21:13]
mercutionice [21:13]
up_the_ironsand it was described as mint condition, barely used. The pics look great [21:13]
mercutiothat sounds like an ideal laptop to me
its' pretty recent!
[21:13]
m0undsis that like a 13/14"? [21:14]
up_the_ironsyeah 6th gen isn't old at all
14"
[21:14]
m0undsnice [21:14]
mercutionot bad
with 1440p that'll look real sharp
you probably need to raise the DPI in X
[21:14]
up_the_ironsi wouldn't have minded a 5th gen, but this guy popped up and was a good deal...
there's a 5th gen open box (about same specs) for $999 floating around on ebay
[21:14]
m0undsah
i think mine's a 5th gen
not an x1, yoga 910
[21:15]
mercutiointel onboard video has been improvnig a little for 2d workloads [21:15]
up_the_ironsi wanted 5th gen or higher b/c of USB C charging [21:15]
mercutioso if it's using onboard video at 1440p it may help a little... [21:15]
up_the_irons1 charger can do both my MacBook and the X1 now [21:15]
m0undsoh, nice - new macbooks are usb-c right? [21:15]
up_the_ironsyeah [21:15]
mercutiousb c sounds awesome [21:16]
up_the_ironstraveling with just 1 charger will reduce weight [21:16]
m0undsoh, i guess this one's a 7th gen. huh.
i figured 7xxx woulda been older
[21:16]
mercutiodamn your cpu is 4 core + ht up_the_irons [21:16]
up_the_ironsyeah it's beefy
i7 i believe
[21:16]
mercutiomost laptops cheap out and have i7s with 2 core+ht or something
it's odd
[21:16]
m0undsyea, that's what mine is
7500u
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/95451/intel-core-i7-7500u-processor-4m-cache-up-to-3-50-ghz.html
[21:16]
mercutioyeah so it says i7... [21:17]
up_the_irons6th gen went all out on the CPUs:
https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad%20X1%20Carbon%20(6th%20Gen)/ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_6th_Gen_Platform_Specifications.pdf
[21:17]
mercutiohd 620 vs hd 630
i wonder how much diff that makes
[21:17]
m0undsdunno, i have a 4k display so i wouldn't mind a tick faster gpu ,haha [21:18]
up_the_ironsso now that i've given up waiting on USPS, i'll go step outside.. bbiab [21:18]
mercutiothe macs have onboard memory on some..
but yeah onboard video at high res can struggle a bit with scrolling etc
like normal 2d workloads
memory speed helps a bit
[21:18]
m0undshaven't noticed that much on win10
16gb, 1tb nvme ssd (samsung)
[21:18]
mercutioit's pretty bad on i3 with 1440p
with ddr3
not sure what cpu it is
maybe ivy bridge
[21:19]
m0undsah
i have a haswell workstation, but beefy gpu (gtx 1080)
[21:19]
mercutioit's better on haswell
it must be ivy bridge
but yeah they're still making improvements to onboard video
[21:19]
m0undsseems like most of the benefit of newer intel cpus have been more mem bandwidth and better power/tdp [21:19]
mercutioamd is better that said
it's better idle power usage mostly
rahter than load
[21:19]
m0undsyeah [21:20]
mercutiobetter power gating etc, partial shut down [21:20]
m0undsyeah, i turn that off on my workstation cuz it's only used for gaming anymore [21:20]
mercutioalso context switch performance has been improving
which helps virtualisation type applications
and spectre workarounds...
[21:20]
m0undsyeah [21:21]
mercutioif you don't care too much about power usaage than c1 idle states gives most power reduction but low latency [21:21]
m0undsah [21:22]
mercutioi hav haswell with 1060, and the one after haswell with 1070 [21:22]
m0undsi wouldn't mind a newer AMD as an "upgrade" [21:22]
mercutioryzen? [21:22]
m0undsyea [21:22]
mercutioyeh [21:22]
m0undscan get MANY-A-THREAD
hahaha
[21:22]
mercutioyeah i doubt it helps much still [21:22]
m0undsmodern games are liking the extra threads [21:23]
mercutioi kind of thought stuff woudl be better threaded years back
ah ok
[21:23]
m0undsbut IPC just isn't a big enough jump [21:23]
mercutiostarcraft 2 still is dual core [21:23]
m0undsi do a lot of flight simming (x-plane 12) and some other crap that likes [21:23]
mercutioi suppose it's an 8 year old game now [21:23]
m0undsextra threads * [21:23]
mercutioyeah depensd what you use [21:23]
m0undsyup
i got a small-ish xeon workstation w/256gb ssd and 16gb of ram for $100 to use as a home "server" of sorts, runs a vm and all my nas backup crap
[21:23]
mercutiobut the vast majority of software doesn't parallelise well
compiling is like the main exception
[21:24]
m0undsyeah [21:24]
mercutiobut linking doesn't parallelise well
llvm has a cool new faster linker though.
[21:24]
m0undse3-1245v2 guy
yeah, i don't do anything w/linux or unix outside of vms anymore
[21:24]
mercutiodid you see windows has ssh now? [21:28]
m0undsyeah
i still just use kitty, haha
old habits die hard
[21:28]
mercutioit's odd how microsoft is embracing linux [21:28]
m0undsthey're giving up on their browser engine in favor of chromium too [21:28]
mercutiowtf
that's kind of bad news :(
[21:28]
m0undsyea, i agree - big part of it was that web devs would just add code to say "we only support chrome and firefox" whenever a site was requested w edge
kind of crummy, reminds me of the old IE days
[21:29]
mercutiothings kind of work better if multiple people implement standard compliant browsers imo [21:29]
m0undsyep [21:29]
mercutiooh [21:29]
m0undsbut on the plus side, they fixed a 4 year old bug in chromium, lol [21:29]
mercutioheh
is it faster?
[21:30]
BryceBotThat's what she said!! [21:30]
mercutiochromium used tob e faster than chrome [21:30]
m0undsyea
edge was faster at a lot of stuff than chromium
but it depended
i have a dev build of nu-edge, but haven't played with it much
edge had much, much better text rendering
[21:30]
mercutioi can't find what edge version i have on my windows box [21:30]
m0undsif you do three dot > settings, it's right at the bottom [21:31]
mercutioMicrosoft Edge 44.18342.1.0
yeah i loked under help -> about
[21:31]
m0undsinsider build? [21:31]
mercutioyeah [21:31]
m0undsyeah, my stable one is 44.17763.1.0 [21:32]
mercutiooh you can download it anyway [21:32]
m0undsthe chromium based one is 76.0.159.0
yeah
it's a separate channel for edge
[21:32]
mercutioi'm doing dev channel [21:32]
m0undsyeah, that's the one i'm on for edge
has all the favorite sync stuff integrated already and they're doing some work for extension qa now
[21:32]
mercutioit's downloading real slow
network interface doing 4 megabit/sec
[21:34]
m0undslame [21:34]
mercutioyeah i dunno why it's so slow
most things download fast
[21:35]
m0undswhat's the cdn-of-choice in nz? akamai? [21:35]
mercutiothis one is using hwcdn and going to los angeles [21:35]
m0undsah, ok [21:36]
mercutioakamai is terrible generally
but it's still pretty popular
cloudflare has become very popular
most cdns have nodes in nz though
except weird ones like verizon
[21:36]
m0undsgotcha
verizon is weird in general
[21:36]
mercutiono adblock! [21:37]
m0undshm? [21:37]
mercutioand it doesn't support dark mode
in edge
it downloaded
[21:37]
m0undsah, i installed ublock origin [21:37]
mercutioheh default search is bing [21:37]
m0undsi use nano adblock in chrome [21:37]
mercutiooh you can still install chrome plugins? [21:37]
m0undschrome://extensions [21:38]
mercutiooh wow
maybe they will kill bing soon and use google too
[21:38]
m0undsdunno, i only really use bing tbh
mostly cuz they do a rewards prog in the us
i hear it's crummy in other countries though
the rewards thing pays for my monthly xbox gamepass stuff, haha
[21:39]
mercutiohah opera is saying it's not good for competition.. but they did the same! [21:41]
m0undsyeah [21:41]
mercutioit's rather scary [21:41]
m0undsyep [21:41]
mercutioapple is our only hope [21:41]
m0undsyup, hahaha [21:41]
mercutiothey can bring safari to windows
acutally isn't that already a thing
[21:42]
m0undsi hate new firefox - i had been using it for a while, but they kept breaking stuff and screwing other shit up
it was, they stopped
[21:42]
mercutiooh
hopefully they resume
i use firefox a little
it's faster than chrome
but a bit awkward
[21:42]
m0undsyeah, it's bad on android
they're doing that whole fenix thing now which might make it better
[21:43]
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acf_up_the_irons: nice
that's basically the upgrade I did a few months ago
X250 to 5th gen x1 carbon, i7, 500GB nvme, 1080p
I'm glad I didn't go for the WQHD screen though
Linux's hidpi support still sucks bad
I'm just running it at a 1:1 scale
[22:02]

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