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| Who | What | When |
|---|---|---|
| mercutio | yeah it's apparently getting more popular over time
apparently they're trying to be stable and recent at the same time arch linux manages to be pretty stable with rolling release | [00:08] |
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| dne | "SFTP has been disabled by default due to security considerations" uhm, ok | [00:36] |
| mercutio | yeah sftp is considered obsolete and insecure by openbsd too
scp is better there was a bug in sftp recently | [00:47] |
| dne | I think you're mixing them up - scp is an old hack, sftp is not | [00:53] |
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| mercutio | oh? | [01:11] |
| ant | It would be very interesting to me to learn why SFTP would be considered obsolete and insecure. Unfortunately, I was unable to find information about that on Google. | [01:22] |
| dne | mercutio: openssh 8.0 release notes: "The scp protocol is outdated, inflexible and not readily fixed. We recommend the use of more modern protocols like sftp and rsync for file transfer instead." | [01:29] |
| mercutio | ah sweet so i was around the wrong way | [01:37] |
| dne | and actually the recent scp issue, CVE-2019-6111, was on the client side | [01:46] |
| ant | Alright :-) | [01:52] |
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| *** | ziyourenxiang has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) | [09:18] |
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| brycec | Next "poll" on Ceph storage -- Thoughts on SAS 15k drives?
From my research thus far, they provide very low seek rates and higher throughput than conventional rust, thus offering a relatively affordable middleground between disks and SSDs Not to mention they ought to have a longer longevity, and their lower density (they seem to peak at 2TB) makes it easier to achieve a "Many smaller drives" solution for better server IOPS and lower recovery times. (Correction: It's 15k drives that peaked at 2TB. There are, of course, 7200 drives in many-TB capacities. But if I'm going SAS, I'm going 15k, or 10k minimum) It's true that brand-new SAS drives are more expensive than SATA counterparts, but if I've already resigned myself to buying used... Plus I know of at least one off-lease reseller that will ship fully-assembled, meaning less work for people I don't trust to do work right. (I haven't abandoned the idea of all-flash, which is not too out of reach price-wise. But I still have concerns about SSD longevity.) | [11:09] |
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| acf_ | is it a problem with number of write cycles? | [14:40] |
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| mercutio | 10k sas isn't a bad way to go | [14:57] |
| brycec | acf_: Yeah write cycles are the longevity concern I have.
I think I've arrived at doing both ssd and hdd, either in separate pools or Ceph's recent cache tiering (depends how my benchmarking and testing goes). This should get me something with plenty of performance room. By splitting it into two pools, like ARP has done, I can spent money and resources better, only where they're needed -- I'm not wasting SSDs capacity on lesser VMs, which leaves the relatively smaller SSD capacity and IO for the more important tasks. And the stuff on the spinning rust should still feel plenty snappy. And, hopefully someday, I can scale to more OSD servers and care less about IOPS on a budget. *I can spend money (I swear, I speak English well) | [15:04] |
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| mercutio | i'd still suggest you try and determine what your iops load is like
tehre are high write endurance ssds https://www.anandtech.com/show/13704/enterprise-ssd-roundup-intel-samsung-memblaze oh this is newer ones hah the intel optane is 60 daily writes per day, and samsung 860 dct is 0.2 daily writes per day but yeah it varies quite a lot... | [15:50] |
| brycec | mercutio: "try and determine what your iops load is like" I have! And I have pretty graphs to show for it too. (Spent a chunk of yesterday instrumenting the current VM hosts, pushing metrics into Influxdb, putting a shiny Grafana dashboard on it etc. | [16:06] |
| mercutio | oh sweet
it's always much harder to do things on small scale | [16:06] |
| brycec | Most of the time, we sustain 50-100 write IOPS, reads are lower. Current hardware/setup seems to peak about 400 IOPS both read and write. | [16:07] |
| mercutio | if you could just throw lots of servers at it then iops would keep going up | [16:07] |
| brycec | Based on back-of-the-napkin math/estimates (formulae provided by various Ceph persons), this pool should see around 1 million IOPS for the SSD-backed storage, and about 5000 IOPS for the HDD pool. | [16:07] |
| mercutio | oh wow that's pretty low
you need to write 3x sata disks doing 5000 iops would require a lot of disks | [16:07] |
| brycec | Oops typo, peak write IOPS is around 1000.
"you need to write 3x" Not sure what you mean here. | [16:08] |
| mercutio | 3 way replication means each write happens to 3 hard-disks | [16:08] |
| brycec | Yeah, I accounted for that | [16:09] |
| mercutio | and you still think 5000 iops?
how much are you giving each disk? | [16:09] |
| brycec | That 5000 IOPS is 200 IOPS * 12 drives * 4 servers * 0.64 (a magic number from one of the Ceph devs) | [16:09] |
| mercutio | 7.2k won't usually do 200 iops | [16:09] |
| brycec | (And 200 IOPS is a conservative estimate) | [16:09] |
| mercutio | it's relaly not conservative | [16:09] |
| brycec | mercutio: When have I ever said 7200? | [16:09] |
| mercutio | oh ok
yeah 15k sas will 10k sas tends to be about twice as fast as 7200 rpm sata but 15k sas is only 50% faster err 50% faster than 10k sas | [16:10] |
| brycec | "only 50% faster"
I don't consider "50%" an "only" eg: The difference between driving 100kph and 150kph is quite noticeable | [16:10] |
| mercutio | i think why 10k sas tends to outperform 7200 rpm sata by so much is both better command queueing, and firmware that is more designed for high iops
true but 50k vs 100k is bigger difference i think it's around ~3msec latency on 15k sas, ~6msec, 10k sas, ~12msec on 7200 rpm sata of course it's like .15msec latency on ssd hmm wikipedia on iops actualyl has iops figuers for hard-disks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOPS | [16:11] |
| BryceBot | IOPS :: Input/output operations per second (IOPS, pronounced eye-ops) is an input/output performance measurement used to characterize computer storage devices like hard disk drives (HDD), solid state drives (SSD), and storage area networks (SAN). Like benchmarks, IOPS numbers published by storage device manufacturers do not directly relate to real-world application performance. Background To meaningfully describe the performance... | [16:14] |
| mercutio | they even confirm my nearly 2x improvement from 7200 rpm to 10k
they're showing less than 50% improvement from 10k sas to 15k sas | [16:14] |
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| anisfarhana | I love arpnetworks!
Since 2013! And keep going now. Thank you #arpnetworks | [17:09] |
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| *** | ziyourenxiang has joined #arpnetworks | [17:42] |
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| up_the_irons | anisfarhana: lol you're welcome
BryceBot: my opinion on refurbished drives is they are a complete waste of time. We have droves of refurbs because we actually would send our failed drives back that were still under warranty (many had 5 year warranties, so we made the manufacturers honor that). The drives we got back would all fail frequently, and keep in mind, the drive you get back doesn't have any of the warranty left. Only 90 days. It's really just blind robbery. Over the years, on SATA, we used Seagate, Hitachi and Western Digital. Seagate was the worst. Hitachi was a lot better. Western Digital has also been pretty good. | [21:01] |
| m0unds | yeah, HGST/Hitachi was always our most reliable too
but they got eaten by WD i think | [21:07] |
| mercutio | is toshiba still around?
i really feel like more hard-disk competition would be good | [21:07] |
| m0unds | umm, i think so | [21:08] |
| mercutio | i dunno what happened to 10k sata hard-drives | [21:08] |
| m0unds | they still do some ssds, afaik | [21:08] |
| mercutio | there was velociraptor... | [21:08] |
| m0unds | yea, they were expensive though | [21:08] |
| mercutio | yeh | [21:08] |
| m0unds | they did 15krpm 2.5" too
but i think the bulk of consumer use is 5400/5900rpm anyway | [21:08] |
| mercutio | affordable 10k 1tb sata disks would be nifty for things like games
yeah for movies that doesn't matter | [21:08] |
| m0unds | yep
i got some WD reds that are nice for bulk storage - replaced some ancient (6 year old or so) 2TB HGST disks that were no longer made and i couldn't find replacements for but consumer ssds have gotten so damned affordable, i ended up replacing one of my 1tb 7200 rpm disks with a 1tb ssd for like $120 | [21:09] |
| mercutio | real
i know 500gb are getting cheaper now but thought 1tb was still a bit far out i got a second nvme ssd.. i have three now | [21:10] |
| m0unds | not at all - the newer sandisk w/marvell chipsets go one sale for $120-179 | [21:11] |
| mercutio | one isn't being used though.. it's only 128gb, and i need another pci-e adapter | [21:11] |
| m0unds | yeah, i have a 540 or some-odd boot SSD on my workstation and a pair of 1TB ones for games and such | [21:11] |
| mercutio | i went intel instead of samsung for my last sd | [21:11] |
| m0unds | and then a 4TB for the remainder of games that i don't want to load fast (my flight sim stuff takes a ton of space) | [21:12] |
| mercutio | a bit lower raw performance, but samsung don't even deliver the speed they say | [21:12] |
| m0unds | yeah, i had bad luck w/sammy stuff in the 540 chipset guys | [21:12] |
| up_the_irons | So USPS was supposed to deliver my X1 Carbon today, but it also says "Arriving Late" on the tracker. Thanks fuckers.. | [21:12] |
| m0unds | had a couple failures under warrant | [21:12] |
| up_the_irons | Hopefully tomorrow | [21:12] |
| m0unds | lame | [21:12] |
| mercutio | what size ssd you getting with it up_the_irons ? | [21:12] |
| m0unds | the worst are when they say it's out for delivery or something, then you don't hear anything, then at like 0200 it says "arriving late" cuz it went out on the wrong truck | [21:12] |
| mercutio | speeds are getting good enough with ssd that reliability is more important than performance | [21:12] |
| up_the_irons | got a 6th gen, WQHD screen, 256GB SSD, 8650U CPU and 16GB of RAM for a bit over $1100 | [21:13] |
| mercutio | and i feel like intel are less likely to fail than samsung | [21:13] |
| m0unds | awesome, great deal | [21:13] |
| mercutio | not bad | [21:13] |
| up_the_irons | yeah! | [21:13] |
| mercutio | wqhd is 2560x1440? | [21:13] |
| m0unds | yeah | [21:13] |
| mercutio | nice | [21:13] |
| up_the_irons | and it was described as mint condition, barely used. The pics look great | [21:13] |
| mercutio | that sounds like an ideal laptop to me
its' pretty recent! | [21:13] |
| m0unds | is that like a 13/14"? | [21:14] |
| up_the_irons | yeah 6th gen isn't old at all
14" | [21:14] |
| m0unds | nice | [21:14] |
| mercutio | not bad
with 1440p that'll look real sharp you probably need to raise the DPI in X | [21:14] |
| up_the_irons | i wouldn't have minded a 5th gen, but this guy popped up and was a good deal...
there's a 5th gen open box (about same specs) for $999 floating around on ebay | [21:14] |
| m0unds | ah
i think mine's a 5th gen not an x1, yoga 910 | [21:15] |
| mercutio | intel onboard video has been improvnig a little for 2d workloads | [21:15] |
| up_the_irons | i wanted 5th gen or higher b/c of USB C charging | [21:15] |
| mercutio | so if it's using onboard video at 1440p it may help a little... | [21:15] |
| up_the_irons | 1 charger can do both my MacBook and the X1 now | [21:15] |
| m0unds | oh, nice - new macbooks are usb-c right? | [21:15] |
| up_the_irons | yeah | [21:15] |
| mercutio | usb c sounds awesome | [21:16] |
| up_the_irons | traveling with just 1 charger will reduce weight | [21:16] |
| m0unds | oh, i guess this one's a 7th gen. huh.
i figured 7xxx woulda been older | [21:16] |
| mercutio | damn your cpu is 4 core + ht up_the_irons | [21:16] |
| up_the_irons | yeah it's beefy
i7 i believe | [21:16] |
| mercutio | most laptops cheap out and have i7s with 2 core+ht or something
it's odd | [21:16] |
| m0unds | yea, that's what mine is
7500u https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/95451/intel-core-i7-7500u-processor-4m-cache-up-to-3-50-ghz.html | [21:16] |
| mercutio | yeah so it says i7... | [21:17] |
| up_the_irons | 6th gen went all out on the CPUs:
https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad%20X1%20Carbon%20(6th%20Gen)/ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_6th_Gen_Platform_Specifications.pdf | [21:17] |
| mercutio | hd 620 vs hd 630
i wonder how much diff that makes | [21:17] |
| m0unds | dunno, i have a 4k display so i wouldn't mind a tick faster gpu ,haha | [21:18] |
| up_the_irons | so now that i've given up waiting on USPS, i'll go step outside.. bbiab | [21:18] |
| mercutio | the macs have onboard memory on some..
but yeah onboard video at high res can struggle a bit with scrolling etc like normal 2d workloads memory speed helps a bit | [21:18] |
| m0unds | haven't noticed that much on win10
16gb, 1tb nvme ssd (samsung) | [21:18] |
| mercutio | it's pretty bad on i3 with 1440p
with ddr3 not sure what cpu it is maybe ivy bridge | [21:19] |
| m0unds | ah
i have a haswell workstation, but beefy gpu (gtx 1080) | [21:19] |
| mercutio | it's better on haswell
it must be ivy bridge but yeah they're still making improvements to onboard video | [21:19] |
| m0unds | seems like most of the benefit of newer intel cpus have been more mem bandwidth and better power/tdp | [21:19] |
| mercutio | amd is better that said
it's better idle power usage mostly rahter than load | [21:19] |
| m0unds | yeah | [21:20] |
| mercutio | better power gating etc, partial shut down | [21:20] |
| m0unds | yeah, i turn that off on my workstation cuz it's only used for gaming anymore | [21:20] |
| mercutio | also context switch performance has been improving
which helps virtualisation type applications and spectre workarounds... | [21:20] |
| m0unds | yeah | [21:21] |
| mercutio | if you don't care too much about power usaage than c1 idle states gives most power reduction but low latency | [21:21] |
| m0unds | ah | [21:22] |
| mercutio | i hav haswell with 1060, and the one after haswell with 1070 | [21:22] |
| m0unds | i wouldn't mind a newer AMD as an "upgrade" | [21:22] |
| mercutio | ryzen? | [21:22] |
| m0unds | yea | [21:22] |
| mercutio | yeh | [21:22] |
| m0unds | can get MANY-A-THREAD
hahaha | [21:22] |
| mercutio | yeah i doubt it helps much still | [21:22] |
| m0unds | modern games are liking the extra threads | [21:23] |
| mercutio | i kind of thought stuff woudl be better threaded years back
ah ok | [21:23] |
| m0unds | but IPC just isn't a big enough jump | [21:23] |
| mercutio | starcraft 2 still is dual core | [21:23] |
| m0unds | i do a lot of flight simming (x-plane 12) and some other crap that likes | [21:23] |
| mercutio | i suppose it's an 8 year old game now | [21:23] |
| m0unds | extra threads * | [21:23] |
| mercutio | yeah depensd what you use | [21:23] |
| m0unds | yup
i got a small-ish xeon workstation w/256gb ssd and 16gb of ram for $100 to use as a home "server" of sorts, runs a vm and all my nas backup crap | [21:23] |
| mercutio | but the vast majority of software doesn't parallelise well
compiling is like the main exception | [21:24] |
| m0unds | yeah | [21:24] |
| mercutio | but linking doesn't parallelise well
llvm has a cool new faster linker though. | [21:24] |
| m0unds | e3-1245v2 guy
yeah, i don't do anything w/linux or unix outside of vms anymore | [21:24] |
| mercutio | did you see windows has ssh now? | [21:28] |
| m0unds | yeah
i still just use kitty, haha old habits die hard | [21:28] |
| mercutio | it's odd how microsoft is embracing linux | [21:28] |
| m0unds | they're giving up on their browser engine in favor of chromium too | [21:28] |
| mercutio | wtf
that's kind of bad news :( | [21:28] |
| m0unds | yea, i agree - big part of it was that web devs would just add code to say "we only support chrome and firefox" whenever a site was requested w edge
kind of crummy, reminds me of the old IE days | [21:29] |
| mercutio | things kind of work better if multiple people implement standard compliant browsers imo | [21:29] |
| m0unds | yep | [21:29] |
| mercutio | oh | [21:29] |
| m0unds | but on the plus side, they fixed a 4 year old bug in chromium, lol | [21:29] |
| mercutio | heh
is it faster? | [21:30] |
| BryceBot | That's what she said!! | [21:30] |
| mercutio | chromium used tob e faster than chrome | [21:30] |
| m0unds | yea
edge was faster at a lot of stuff than chromium but it depended i have a dev build of nu-edge, but haven't played with it much edge had much, much better text rendering | [21:30] |
| mercutio | i can't find what edge version i have on my windows box | [21:30] |
| m0unds | if you do three dot > settings, it's right at the bottom | [21:31] |
| mercutio | Microsoft Edge 44.18342.1.0
yeah i loked under help -> about | [21:31] |
| m0unds | insider build? | [21:31] |
| mercutio | yeah | [21:31] |
| m0unds | yeah, my stable one is 44.17763.1.0 | [21:32] |
| mercutio | oh you can download it anyway | [21:32] |
| m0unds | the chromium based one is 76.0.159.0
yeah it's a separate channel for edge | [21:32] |
| mercutio | i'm doing dev channel | [21:32] |
| m0unds | yeah, that's the one i'm on for edge
has all the favorite sync stuff integrated already and they're doing some work for extension qa now | [21:32] |
| mercutio | it's downloading real slow
network interface doing 4 megabit/sec | [21:34] |
| m0unds | lame | [21:34] |
| mercutio | yeah i dunno why it's so slow
most things download fast | [21:35] |
| m0unds | what's the cdn-of-choice in nz? akamai? | [21:35] |
| mercutio | this one is using hwcdn and going to los angeles | [21:35] |
| m0unds | ah, ok | [21:36] |
| mercutio | akamai is terrible generally
but it's still pretty popular cloudflare has become very popular most cdns have nodes in nz though except weird ones like verizon | [21:36] |
| m0unds | gotcha
verizon is weird in general | [21:36] |
| mercutio | no adblock! | [21:37] |
| m0unds | hm? | [21:37] |
| mercutio | and it doesn't support dark mode
in edge it downloaded | [21:37] |
| m0unds | ah, i installed ublock origin | [21:37] |
| mercutio | heh default search is bing | [21:37] |
| m0unds | i use nano adblock in chrome | [21:37] |
| mercutio | oh you can still install chrome plugins? | [21:37] |
| m0unds | chrome://extensions | [21:38] |
| mercutio | oh wow
maybe they will kill bing soon and use google too | [21:38] |
| m0unds | dunno, i only really use bing tbh
mostly cuz they do a rewards prog in the us i hear it's crummy in other countries though the rewards thing pays for my monthly xbox gamepass stuff, haha | [21:39] |
| mercutio | hah opera is saying it's not good for competition.. but they did the same! | [21:41] |
| m0unds | yeah | [21:41] |
| mercutio | it's rather scary | [21:41] |
| m0unds | yep | [21:41] |
| mercutio | apple is our only hope | [21:41] |
| m0unds | yup, hahaha | [21:41] |
| mercutio | they can bring safari to windows
acutally isn't that already a thing | [21:42] |
| m0unds | i hate new firefox - i had been using it for a while, but they kept breaking stuff and screwing other shit up
it was, they stopped | [21:42] |
| mercutio | oh
hopefully they resume i use firefox a little it's faster than chrome but a bit awkward | [21:42] |
| m0unds | yeah, it's bad on android
they're doing that whole fenix thing now which might make it better | [21:43] |
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| acf_ | up_the_irons: nice
that's basically the upgrade I did a few months ago X250 to 5th gen x1 carbon, i7, 500GB nvme, 1080p I'm glad I didn't go for the WQHD screen though Linux's hidpi support still sucks bad I'm just running it at a 1:1 scale | [22:02] |
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