#arpnetworks 2019-04-25,Thu

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WhoWhatWhen
up_the_ironshaha yeah
mhoran: the only reason 40 Gbps Ethernet became a thing was because the backplane in Cisco switches couldn't go higher than that. And aren't they a big player in IEEE ? So it was codified and everyone was like, " wtf fuck you".. because they held back adoption of 100 Gbps ethernet
mercutio: that Arista... it makes no sense to have 40x 100 Gbps but only 8x 40 Gbps.. the uplinks are a bottleneck
brycec: looks like I can ping one of your IPs now (yay!) 		[00:02]
mercutioup_the_irons: that's why i thought it might be a typo it just seemed odd
but the datasheet matched 		[00:09]
brycecup_the_irons: What a wonder when systemd actually starts!
brycec moves on to figuring out what the hell happened that Debian forgot how to /sbin/init
(much smoother now that I can SSH in) 		[00:16]
acf_that's always my worst fear after my arp box has been running for 2 years [00:17]
brycec6 months in my case
Upside: zfs snapshots are kept for 6 months 		[00:17]
acf_I was shocked everything started back up without any intervention after the cage move the other day [00:17]
brycecYou lucky duck :P
well well well... The March 1st snap is good, the April 1st snap has a busted /sbin/init
brycec hugs zfs 		[00:18]
up_the_ironswow how did /sbin/init get corrupted
hack?
mercutio: maybe the data sheet is wrong? hahha 		[00:19]
brycecWent from being a symlink to some old-ass sysvinit
(narrowed it down to sometime between March 1st and March 25th... because I only keep 30 daily snaps) 		[00:19]
acf_you think the result of an upgrade? [00:21]
brycecMust be?
(No evidence of unauthorized access) 		[00:21]
acf_that system must have been installed a long time ago if it has any sysvinit binaries anywhere near it :P [00:22]
brycecI mean, it's Debian, so... [00:22]
up_the_ironsheh [00:25]
acf_bit of a change of subject but
has ARP ever thought about buying ARM server hardware?
pretty niche atm, but aws is offering it now 		[00:25]
brycecFound a forum post (two, in fact) that described what happened precisely o/ https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/upgrade-to-kernel-4-15-18-12-pve-goes-boom.52564/#post-243333 [00:26]
acf_might be cool to get in ahead
brycec: so it was zfs's fault in the end :P
(sort of) 		[00:26]
brycecshuddup :P
brycec blames packages
*packagers 		[00:27]
mercutioi wonder if the idea of the 8 uplinks is to connect to legacy 40gigabit networks for your 100 gigabit supercomputer cluster up_the_irons ? [00:37]
up_the_irons"pve goes boom" hahahah
acf_: never thought much about it... i'm so tired of buying hardware
it's the opposite of an investment... if you want to make sure your money runs the other way of inflation, buy technology 		[00:38]
acf_I suppose it is a necessary evil though
buying hardware
https://www.gigabyte.com/ARM-Server/R150-T62-rev-10
[00:41]
brycecI wouldn't say buying is "necessary" - there's always theft :P [00:42]
acf_this looks like it's roughly US$5,000
or, more legally, leasing :P
cool thing about these arm boxes is they seem to have a ton of cores
so I presume you can dedicate 1 core to each of 47 customer VMs
on a single blade 		[00:42]
up_the_ironsI've learned that to survive in this biz, you have to let someone else eat the depreciation. so, after AWS or Google offload 10,000 of these boxes onto eBay, then we'll buy some haha [00:44]
acf_hahaha fair enough
that's how I buy my laptops actually
always off ebay, and always at least 2 generations old
price is like 1/10th and the box is good as new 		[00:45]
up_the_ironsyup
I'm still using my Lenovo T520 which I got for $240
I had another T520, which a client had bought me years earlier, and it was $1800 new 		[00:46]
acf_ah damn that's good
I was using an ebay X250 until recently 		[00:47]
up_the_ironsnice [00:47]
acf_I decided I needed 16GB for all my chromium tabs so I upgraded to a 5th gen X1 carbon, also off ebay [00:47]
brycecNot to mention by waiting, there's either an established market for $newtech or you know it's a flop and not to waste your money :) [00:48]
acf_spoiler: chromium figured out how to eat the 16gb [00:48]
mercutiochrome is such a huge memory hog
i've started using firefox sometimes now
it seems to be getting worse and worse
computer cpus have hardly been rising in speed
they've actually been getting slower over time with all of these spectre/meltdown workarounds 		[00:48]
acf_https://unixcube.org/who/acf/tmp/images/screen/top-1.png
this pretty much describes it :P 		[00:49]
mercutiothere's very little performance boost from ddr3 to ddr4
graphics cards have improved 		[00:50]
acf_chromium chromium chromium chromium chromium java chromium [00:50]
mercutionvme is stupidly fast for disk
but single threaded processing speed struggles to make much improvement 		[00:50]
up_the_ironsacf_: I have a tab addiction too [00:50]
mercutioand most code still isn't designed to parallelise well
the main benefit to performance ordinary users get now is things like JIT compiling of javascript 		[00:50]
up_the_ironsI think it's time I leave the DC... it's been another like 12 hour day here [00:51]
mercutioif people coded for performance like they did in amiga days computers would probably rocket along [00:51]
acf_yikes, yeah time to go home :P [00:51]
up_the_irons:) [00:52]
acf_must be working quite hard with all this migration stuff recently [00:52]
up_the_ironsmercutio: haha yeah [00:52]
mercutioacf: there's a lot of little things [00:52]
up_the_ironsacf_: certainly, it's been a whirlwind [00:52]
mercutiobut things are becoming simpler [00:52]
up_the_ironsYou basically start over, but with a fresh design [00:52]
mercutioipv6 and ipv4 terminate on the same router [00:52]
up_the_ironsand you take what you learned over the years and make changes [00:52]
acf_yeah all that plus the cage move [00:53]
up_the_ironsour setup is soooooooo much simpler now; not quite as redundant, but the areas where we built redundancy before, in over 10 years, never needed it
our s1.lax still has over 10 years uptime 		[00:53]
mercutioalso we have spares so we can still resolve any issues quick [00:53]
up_the_ironss1.lax uptime is 10 years, 9 weeks, 4 days, 13 hours, 10 minutes [00:54]
acf_10 years is the standard service life of industrial electronics [00:54]
up_the_ironsit will go down, not due to failure, but because we simply don't need it anymore
I'm going to keep it in my living room for a while
hhahaah 		[00:55]
mercutioand because it's physically huge [00:55]
up_the_ironsI'll rest my feet on it [00:55]
brycecG'night #arpnetworks thanks for your help tonight. My server is back to its normal working order. [00:55]
mercutioit's also 10 years of doing a lot of changes to config
with no flash failures or anything 		[00:55]
up_the_ironsbrycec: cool!! great to hear!
mercutio: yeah.. not even a RAM failure 		[00:55]
acf_s3 on the other hand [00:56]
mercutios3 is gone [00:56]
up_the_ironss3.lax was just a software router (OpenBSD)
and yeah, s3 is dead 		[00:56]
acf_oh s3 was the software router
for some reason I never made that connection 		[00:57]
up_the_ironsyeah [00:57]
acf_iirc it was the one that always kept crashing :P [00:57]
up_the_ironss3, then s32, then r2 [00:57]
mercutiowe have hardware forwarding of ipv6 now
but r2 performance was fine 		[00:57]
up_the_ironsacf_: b/c of Any2 IX terminating on it? That was actually s7.lax, a Cisco 6506. But it never crashed after we took Any2 off it [00:57]
mercutioit's just we get to consolidate [00:57]
up_the_ironsyeah [00:57]
acf_ohh I must be thinking of s7 then [00:57]
up_the_ironsyeah it must have had some bug [00:58]
mercutiothat was a long time ago [00:58]
acf_haha feels like yesterday [00:58]
up_the_ironsbut it's done pretty well recently
s7.lax uptime is 4 years, 36 weeks, 3 days, 23 hours, 49 minutes
acf_: see how time flies? 		[00:58]
acf_especially when you haven't been on the irc in 3 years :P [00:58]
mercutioyeah irc isn't as active as it used to be [00:59]
up_the_ironsalright guys, I'm gonna head out too... too much data center noise for today
well the +r really reduced user count
but we had to do it b/c of the spam
up_the_irons packs up 		[00:59]
mercutiowell even before that it was pretty quiet [00:59]
acf_yeah I remember going on here for a minute during the supermicro thing
irc logs had been basically empty for days 		[01:00]
mercutiosupermicro things? [01:00]
acf_"the big hack" [01:00]
mercutiooh right [01:00]
acf_seems like it's picked back up a bit the last week or so with all the stuff going on though [01:01]
mercutioa little [01:01]
acf_https://danluu.com/input-lag/
re what you were saying earlier
you've seen this yeah? 		[01:01]
mercutiohave you done the reaction speed test?
https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
what i found most interesting was that my reaction time would get slower when i was tired, but i didn't feel like my reaction time was slower 		[01:02]
acf_looks like I'm at roughly 300ms right now [01:03]
mercutioit's kind of like how they say that driving sleep deprived can be as bad as driving drunk
i'm usally aruond 220
i'm like 280 when tired
mouse can make a difference though
some add like 20 msec latency 		[01:03]
acf_thinkpad integrated trackpoint for me [01:04]
mercutio249 now
oh and screen can make a difference too
but if you use the same device and test yourself against yourself you can see how much you vary
oh also reaction times tend to be quicker when you're younger 		[01:04]
acf_lol I get like 500ms on my phone [01:05]
mercutioyeah phones are notorious for lag
it's all accumulative also
so there's the input device latency plus the screen latency plus the os/software latency
also you can speed your reaction up slightly by turning your head the side slightly and using peripheral vision 		[01:06]
acf_hmm my older thinkpad I get 230ms [01:07]
mercutioyeh device makes a difference
so 70msec changing device? :)
so like if you ssh'ed half way across the world you might notice a difference on your slower device vs your faster
but if you ssh'ed to a computer in the same city as you you probably won't 		[01:07]
acf_yeah that's a lot of latency [01:09]
mercutioi think if you play first person shooter games as a kid you'll tend to have faster reaction times too. but at the same time if you have slow reaction times you probably hate first person shooters. [01:09]
acf_hahaha yeah I've never played fps [01:10]
mercutioprobably any twitch type games would help it [01:10]
acf_ever played vvvvvv? [01:10]
mercutioor sporting things that use reaction time
nope 		[01:10]
acf_https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/VVVVVV_-_The_Tomb_of_Mad_Carew.png
only game that comes to mind I've played that requires good reaction times 		[01:11]
mercutioi've been playing factorio recently
which isn't really reaction time game
oh yeah old games used to be so hard!
and there would be things like you die once and you go back to the start of the game 		[01:12]
acf_actually that's my favourite thing about vvvvvv
that little "C" there is a checkpoint
they're quite often 		[01:13]
mercutioahh [01:13]
acf_you only go back to that, and there is no concept of lives [01:13]
mercutioyaeh i think checkpoints were nice tbh [01:13]
acf_so you can just keep trying until you make it
otherwise I'd give up after 5 minutes :P 		[01:13]
mercutioi think games used to be too hard
but now they're too easy instead generally 		[01:13]
acf_can't stand re-doing a whole level because I hit a spike [01:13]
mercutioyeh
that was so common though! 		[01:13]
acf_I guess it instils discipline [01:14]
mercutiowell also less code [01:14]
acf_haha really [01:14]
mercutiowell things like sega master system had kilobytes of code i think?
like 20k? 		[01:14]
acf_yeah back in the day when video games were written in assembly [01:15]
mercutiowell sega soem games were bigger than others
it has 8kb ram 16kb vram
so yeah i wouldn't be surprised if games were 20k 		[01:15]
acf_20k including graphics?
idk the code and graphics would probably be stored on rom right? 		[01:16]
mercutiooh they went up to 1024kb
yeah so the roms can be quite big
surprising 		[01:16]
acf_yeah small ram makes sense [01:17]
mercutioquite a few old amiga games didn't use the whole floppy
like pre native games 		[01:17]
acf_the performance vs laziness (or "work") tradeoff you mentioned earlier is pretty interesting [01:17]
mercutiohmm the sega master system came out at $200
that's cheaper than i thought
i wonder what equivilent that is now
yeah around 2001 or so languages liek perl, pyhton etc were taking off a lot
using lots of ram and having subpar performance 		[01:17]
acf_java is what really comes to mind [01:19]
mercutioheh
yeah 		[01:19]
acf_when you say lots of ram and subpar performance [01:19]
mercutioso java when it came out was really slow [01:19]
acf_but that would have started in the 90s yeah? [01:19]
mercutioso android is java
yeah in the 90s
solaris used to be called slowaris
it was always a little sluggish
linux had a reputation for being fast and unstable
solaris for being slow and reliable
but lots of old solaris programs would fail pretty badly at times 		[01:19]
acf_java's awful performance seems to have kept up with improvements in computing power somehow [01:20]
mercutioyeah there's been so many new versions [01:20]
acf_eclipse is still super slugish and uses all my ram [01:20]
mercutioand it still seems to be kind of sluggish. also the amonut of ram programs use these days is insane
ios vs android is actually a good example of compiled vs jit code 		[01:20]
acf_yeah well some people thought it would be a good idea [01:21]
mercutiothere are some situations where ios is a lot better than android
like running a bit of code when a phone has to wake up 		[01:21]
acf_to make desktop applications in html / javascript and ship and entire chrome installation with them [01:21]
mercutioso like if your phone is mostly idle... you can turn the cpu on for a fraction of a second and not actually warm up the caches
so you leave your caches cold to use less power 		[01:21]
acf_hm [01:21]
mercutioso when you have compiled code it's much easier to stay within a tight cache instruction window
and that can directly transfer to better idle power consumption
although there are other tricks in use too, like wifi will do arps etc with hardware offload 		[01:22]
acf_afaik today Android's Java runtime actually does ahead of time compiling [01:23]
mercutiooh it does doesn't it [01:23]
acf_although no idea about performance. I'm sure there is still tons of overhead from the java rutime [01:23]
mercutiobut yeah .. so iphones actually end up having less ram than android phones
for similar performance level 		[01:23]
acf_yeah I'm not surprised
mfw my phone has a higher display resolution and more ram than my laptop 		[01:23]
mercutioheh my tablet is 2560x1600"
my phone is 2560x1440 		[01:24]
acf_my laptop was 1366x768 until earlier this year [01:24]
mercutiomy monitors are 2560x1440s too [01:24]
acf_now 1920x1080 [01:24]
mercutiomy laptop is 1920x1080 too [01:24]
acf_phone is 2560xSomething [01:24]
mercutiomy phone is from 2014 hah
galaxy note 4 		[01:24]
acf_ahh nice [01:25]
mercutioit's not a bad phone
i think it has like 3gb of ram 		[01:25]
acf_until last year I had a Nokia windows phone from 2013
if MS had continued supporting the platform I would have continued buying it 		[01:25]
mercutioyeah 3gb [01:25]
acf_but oh well [01:25]
mercutiomy friend who works for google was saying that windows phone was good [01:25]
acf_yeah tbh I think people don't give it a chance
because desktop windows sucks, and it has the same name 		[01:26]
mercutioit's odd, he used to (probably still does) use openbsd etc.
so then he comes and tells me windows phone is good
and i'm like hmm.. 		[01:26]
acf_haha yeah. I run linux on all my laptops, etc.. and (used to) windows on all my phones [01:26]
mercutioapparently it's been canceled [01:26]
acf_yeah that was sad [01:26]
mercutioso it's good? [01:26]
acf_imo it was very good [01:27]
mercutiocurious
i wonder why it never took off
i suppose lack of apps 		[01:27]
acf_yeah that's probably the big one [01:27]
mercutioactually i know someone else who said that it was good but he's a windows fan boy [01:27]
acf_my thing is I don't like installing a ton of random apps anyway so I'm fine with it [01:27]
mercutioyeh i don't ilke too many apps either [01:27]
acf_imo the Android UX used to be awful [01:28]
mercutioi hardly use my phone compared to a lot of people it seems
i tried to add a contact the other day and i had to figure out where everything was :) 		[01:28]
acf_like I remember samsung long ago [01:28]
mercutioit's odd you go down the bottmo left to contacts.. then to the top right to add [01:28]
acf_swiping through the 3 screens of apps trying to find the one I wanted [01:28]
mercutioit just seems a weird ui [01:28]
acf_on WP, I'd just search the first 3 characters [01:29]
mercutiolike human eye goes top left to bottom right normally
so a goood way to confuse people is go bottom left to top right
for phones swyping from the left etc isn't actually that bad a way of doing things
pushing your thumb bottom left seems odd though 		[01:29]
acf_also you have a samsung right [01:29]
mercutioyeah
so they make everything novel 		[01:29]
acf_iirc samsung replaces all the default android stuff with super shit samsung stuff [01:30]
mercutioyeah it does
some of it's nice 		[01:30]
acf_last I checked (galaxy 8) they still do it
and it's still bad 		[01:30]
mercutiobut some of it's just odd [01:30]
acf_one of my biggest peeves with them [01:30]
mercutioyeah i dunno some things are nice on it though [01:30]
acf_is their software all updates separately from the both the "system" and the Google store [01:30]
mercutioyeah i wish they did more updates [01:30]
acf_it's like the least you could do is have a unified update mechanism [01:30]
mercutionote 4 has been abandoned pretty much [01:30]
acf_all this inconsistency just feels gross [01:31]
mercutioand the newer notes are kind of lame
like they took out microsd and replaceable battery 		[01:31]
acf_I heard note 7 is good [01:31]
mercutiolike i have a replacement battery on my phone
i don't have a microsd, but i like the option none the less.
i used to use a microsd with phones
but i just don't want to store lots on it anyway 		[01:31]
acf_yeah I just get a big internal flash and use that
microsd is kinda slow r/w performance anyway 		[01:32]
mercutiooh wow apparently it does 24bit/192khz audio
yeah there is uhs-1 that speeds things up a bit but it's not supported on most older phones
also sdcard doesn't tend to have good wear levelling 		[01:32]
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mercutiobrycec: did you notice openbsd 6.5 upgrade was weirdly fast?
i think openbsd must have improved their disk performance... 		[16:15]
i can't see anyhting in the release notes about why though [16:27]
mhoranIt was fast!
I always accidentally pull from the default ftp4 and have to restart from a reasonable mirror 		[16:29]
mercutiooh i did it from mirrors.arpnetworks.com
but the pulling/installing bit seemed to be noticably less sluggish
Hacking on virtio(4), including defines, bug fixing and pci device list.
wonder if that was it 		[16:31]
mhoranAh nice. Yeah I've got it on a pcengines box
Home router :) 		[16:41]
mercutioah
is pcengines x86? 		[16:43]
mhoranIt's an amd64 clone iirc [16:44]
mercutioah ok [16:45]
mhoranApu.4 [16:45]
mercutioi saw they just moved mips to clang
oh i think they moved to the clang linker too
so compiling should be faster... 		[16:45]
mhoranYeah
Every time I upgrade obsd something breaks work dhcpcd, which I need for ipv6 :( 		[16:45]
mercutioodd [16:46]
mhoranBut the maintainer is great and super responsive [16:46]
mercutiothey changed openbgpd quite a lot in 6.4 [16:46]
mhoranI'm probably one of like 3 people using it [16:46]
mercutioit's kind of cool that they're active, but yeah can require kind of lot mangling to get things right sometimes [16:47]
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mercutiohas anyone else upgraded to OpenBSD on a VM yet? [17:47]
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mhoranup_the_irons: something seems wrong with the ARP DNS servers? My monitoring is going crazy because of timeouts and it seems to be to do with reverse DNS resolution.
Changing to 1.1.1.1 resolved. 		[18:21]
mercutioyou can tag me too mhoran ;)
reverse dns on what? 		[18:30]
mhoranPostfix. [18:31]
mercutioi can resolve 1.1.1.1 fine on both the arp dns servers [18:31]
mhoranI had the ARP servers in /etc/resolv.conf and my SMTP checks were timing out. I changed resolv.conf to 1.1.1.1 and they're good again. telnet to matthoran.com 587 was taking ~5s to get a banner, which IIRC is the resolv.conf timeout before it tries another server. [18:32]
mercutioweird
yeh the default is stupid high
3 seconds is better now days 		[18:32]
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