#arpnetworks 2017-03-08,Wed

ARP Thunder does sound pretty dang cool
You've got me evaluating whether/what I can migrate to it.
up_the_irons: Is there any significant difference between Thunder and VPSs running on the Ceph storage cluster, besides Thunder's increased RAM/CPU and SSD storage? Are they otherwise "just virtual machines" with better specs?
PS up_the_irons - the Thunder page makes no mention of bandwidth quota, while VPS and Metal pages do. Does that mean Thunder has unlimited monthly bandwidth? :P

[14:22]

up_the_irons

they run on different hosts. hosts that can accommodate dedicating hardware (e.g. CPU cores). and also they enable the vmx bit, so you can run VMs of your own (just like a bare metal dedicated server would)
yeah aware of the bandwidth issue; it's on the order page though
i just haven't got around to making that 4th row, and my css skills are lacking...

[14:26]

brycec

Ah so it is there. Very cool. Very tempting...

[14:27]

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mercutio

i reckon arp thunder is cool too :)

[14:44]

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brycec

up_the_irons: To your knowledge, has anyone run ZFS on Ceph block devices? Are there any known "gotchas" or the like?

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[15:32]

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up_the_irons

brycec: not to my knowledge

[15:57]

brycec

Excellent

[15:57]

up_the_irons

i would think it would be fine. it looks like any ol' block device to the OS.

[15:58]

brycec

up_the_irons: Are the SSD and HDD storage presented as separate block devices?

[15:58]

up_the_irons

yup

[15:58]

brycec

s/HDD/"SATA"/

[15:58]

BryceBot

<brycec> up_the_irons: Are the SSD and "SATA" storage presented as separate block devices?

[15:58]

up_the_irons

they are different Ceph pools

[15:58]

brycec

How are storage upgrades handled, the block device just becomes "larger"?

[15:59]

up_the_irons

yup

[15:59]

brycec

Very compelling stuff

[15:59]

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[15:59]

up_the_irons

it's one of my favorite features. someone wants a bigger disk, and it's a command we type. No more data center trip.

[16:00]

brycec

Seems like I could migrate from a Metal to a Large and save some $

[16:00]

up_the_irons

RAM for RAM, HD for HD, it's a little cheaper than Metal

[16:00]

brycec

And the backend data redundancy is the icing on the cake

Also the flexibility of having SSD _and_ SATA space (for those of us on the blades that only take 2 drives, period)

[16:00]

up_the_irons

right exactly
use cases i would _not_ recommend: very high bandwidth, really high disk IOPS (having your own dedicated disks, all to yourself, is better in this case)

[16:01]

brycec

Both good points.

[16:03]

mercutio

not having to deal with java is a huge + too

[16:03]

brycec

lol

[16:03]

mercutio

don't underestimate it :)

[16:03]

up_the_irons

oh yes, cannot emphasize that enough ;)

[16:04]

brycec

On the other hand I'll miss ipmitool and the feeling of reliability that comes with running on bare-metal.

[16:04]

mercutio

maybe you should just do both :)

[16:04]

brycec

Why mercutio it's as if you're benefitting from the upsell ;p

[16:05]

mercutio

hah

[16:05]

brycec

The only thing I have to figure out is how much storage I need / how much I'm currently using and can be shaved-off.
(I'm coming from RAID-1 1TB, so 500GB is a bit of a step-down, but how much am I _really_ using?)

[16:05]

up_the_irons

brycec: you can get a 1TB volume, it's on the order form under "Extra Disk"

[16:06]

brycec

I know :)

[16:06]

mercutio

bryce is trying to save money i think

[16:06]

up_the_irons

and hell, just saying, if you want a 5TB or 10TB volume, just say the word ;)
ah ok

[16:07]

brycec

lol it's all just $
Also, since I intend to run ZFS on it, shrinking is not an option (and growing is... problematic)

[16:07]

mercutio

zfs grows fine i think

[16:07]

brycec

So I've gotta get it "right". That said, identical Thunder specs to my current Metal are just $15/mo less

[16:08]

mercutio

well i know :)

[16:08]

up_the_irons

think if you need the SSD disk then, b/c (while it's not listed yet), i was thinking of allowing people to "opt out" of either the SSD disk or the SATA disk and get a discount. i mean, why pay if you're not gonna use it.

[16:08]

mercutio

but yeah shrinking ain't so good

[16:08]

brycec

mercutio: It has to be done in a matching matter
up_the_irons: I will be quite happy to have /some/ SSD (for ZFS L2ARC/cache), but I appreciate the consideration and I recommend extending it to thers.
*others

[16:08]

up_the_irons

OK :)

[16:09]

brycec

Now if I could downgrade the SSD to a lesser amount of storage for a "credit" towards SATA... but I think it's just getting "complicated" at that point and I don't want to make things too complicated for your side

[16:10]

mercutio

why not stick the OS on oen partition of ssd
adn zfs on the other
actually
i'd just create two zfs pools
i kind of wish zfs could auto balance between two zfs pools of different speeds, or have disks with different speeds that are balanced

[16:11]

brycec

mercutio: And I would stick the OS on the SSD, sure. But I don't need 200GB of SSD for OS+L2ARC :p

[16:12]

mercutio

database?

[16:12]

brycec

Not currently running anything that "heavy"

[16:12]

mercutio

i don't know what you're doing

[16:12]

brycec

(The database server I do have running can keep everything in RAM anyways)

[16:13]

mercutio

but my current thinking is that ssd is good for generic stuff
and hard-disk is good for archive/backup

[16:13]

brycec

What aren't I doing? :P (Serving porn, among many things. But nobody really cares.)
I'm tentatively thinking I'd put my running VM images (yes, I'll be running Proxmox) on the SSD and backups on the SATA. And this is where figuring out where exactly I'm using space comes into play.
(Answer: about 70% of my current usage are in ZFS snapshots anyways)

[16:13]

up_the_irons

We'd be happy to trade SSD for SATA "credit". I mean, why not be flexible now that we can. that's part of the excitement of all this new tech :)

[16:14]

brycec

Thanks up_the_irons :)
(I think I might be most tempted by the flexibility of increasing RAM "on the fly")

[16:15]

up_the_irons

and that's another "command" ;)

[16:16]

brycec

To a certain extent, storage could always be added in various ways (i.e. Another VPS exporting a partition over iSCSI) but RAM was really, truly a "visit the datacenter" task. And once you hit the max supported for your machine, that was that.

[16:17]

up_the_irons

yeah that's the truth

[16:18]

brycec

Out of curiosity, what kind of hardware makes up the Ceph cluster? Are you "recycling" old kvr host machines? Or is this fancy new stuff?

[16:19]

up_the_irons

The SSD side are the HP Proliant 25-bay units
The SATA side has some recycled old kvr hosts, but I'm stopping that because a 12-bay DL180 G6/7 is looking like a better value

[16:20]

brycec

Ooooh. Ahhh. What about the hosts for Thunder?

[16:21]

up_the_irons

as long as I can get the fucking LSI 9211's to play nice with the G6. If you follow our Instagram, you'll see my frustration ;)
Thunder hosts are just our regular E3 and E5's, the same ones we use for Metal

[16:21]

brycec

Okay cool.

[16:22]

up_the_irons

In fact, they are all old Metal hosts

[16:22]

brycec

Every time a customer migrates from Metal to Thunder, you get another host machine to use, eh?

[16:23]

up_the_irons

why yes :)

[16:23]

brycec

And here I was slightly worried I was "sticking you with" the old machine

[16:23]

up_the_irons

people still order the Metal's, so it's OK. I'll sell them either way.

[16:24]

brycec

Thanks for the Q&A up_the_irons. I'm definitely sold. Just a matter of figuring out _what_ I need, and a migration plan.
(And thanks to mercutio too, of course)

[16:30]

up_the_irons

no problem :)

[16:30]

brycec

(I'm even debating going from Metal to 3*Small Thunders so I can break one host and not affect the other two.)

[16:30]

mercutio

sounds like a storm

[16:31]

brycec

(*Starter, not Small. My bad) lol

[16:31]

mercutio

yeah that's the kind of thing that something like this makes easier to do

[16:31]

brycec

Indeed. Harder to manage though, and less efficient "savings" but it might be worth it. Or a pair of "mediums" for that matter.

[16:33]

mercutio

maybe two mediums and a starter?

[16:33]

brycec

I only have a handful of VMs I'm hosting anyways, it's not like it's the end of the world if they're unreachable. But I'm intrigued at the "modularity" of it all.

[16:34]

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nathani

I am curious, if metal boxes are being repurposed as Thunder boxes, whats the speed of the storage network, is it 1gig ethernet, 10 gig ethernet or some kind of infiniband?

[18:16]

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up_the_irons

nathani: you asked me this before ;)
40 Gbps Infiniband

[19:06]

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nathani

up_the_irons: I didn't realize the metal dedicated boxes had infiniband as well, or is this something you are installing to convert them into thunder boxes?

[20:07]

mercutio

infiniband is awesome :)
it should be everywhere
1gigabit network for file storage would give pretty mediocre performance
on top of that, there'd be a lot less performance stability
as there would be issues like congestion etc from other users. the cool thing about having a huge amount of bandwidth available is that it doesn't really bottleneck
(of course the bottleneck can move elsewhere)

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[23:21]

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