#arpnetworks 2016-06-06,Mon

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WhoWhatWhen
mike-burnsEvery time I have to install GNU Bash for some program it makes me think: this developer could have picked any programming language, with any amount of expressivity and capability, and they picked GNU Bash? [01:55]
up_the_ironsI tend to pick bash for simple tasks. It's always installed everywhere, so I don't need to worry about it being a dependency. [01:57]
mike-burnsI don't have it installed on anything, so I tend not to use it. [02:00]
up_the_ironsi c [02:08]
mercutioi don't install bash on openbsd [02:09]
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mhoran_Also not installed on FreeBSD. [04:03]
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mercutioi think lots of ports depend on it in freebsd? [04:04]
mhoranI guess I don't have any of those ports installed. [04:05]
mercutioa lot of stuff needs gmake
bloody gnu
[04:05]
mhoran[mhoran@friction] ~% bash
zsh: correct 'bash' to 'hash' [nyae]? n
[04:05]
mercutiohahaha
you don't need hash
i installed zsh on opensolaris
[04:05]
mhoranI also uninstall gmake every time a port installs it for build, and generally use packages so long as they don't pull X11 or something else insane. [04:06]
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mike-burnsYeah same. Switching to packages has helped remove any GNU dependencies. [05:04]
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brycecI've come across a number of scripts that "relied on" bash only as far as calling it in the shabang, but didn't actually utilize bash-isms, the developer just didn't know any better to use /bin/sh :( [09:30]
mike-burnsOr scripts with bash in the shebang but only so that they can declare functions using the GNU Bash syntax. [09:31]
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nathanihttps://www.facebook.com/owendelong/posts/10153204974284649 [17:11]
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up_the_ironssomeone correct me if I'm wrong.. but is the "service" command in Ubuntu Trusty part of Upstart, but on Xenial, it is systemd ?
mercutio: ^^ :)
[17:36]
mhoranYup.
On debian it routes to systemd somefuckinghow.
I don't even understand how Linux works anymore.
[17:37]
mercutioup_the_irons: it can also link to init.d i think [17:37]
up_the_ironswell that's not confusing , is it
up_the_irons facepalms
[17:38]
mercutiosystemv started the confusion
it escalated from there
[17:38]
up_the_ironsno wonder the etcd service script on my Xenial nodes don't work, yet the scripts are using it like upstart
i swear to god i'm going to make my own linux distro
[17:38]
mercutiosystemd isn't actually too bad to use
up_the_irons: good luck :)
[17:39]
up_the_ironshaha
ARP Linux™ LOL
[17:39]
mhoranI just have to learn all new tools that are different than the ones I've been using for 20 years. [17:39]
up_the_ironsyeah it's so annoying [17:39]
mercutiothen you can learn to love to hate autoconf, automake, etc. [17:39]
mhoran... and different from the tools that I have to use on other systems. [17:39]
up_the_ironsand you have to re-learn them every 2 years when the whole thing changes [17:40]
mhoranYup. [17:40]
mercutioi haven't found much has changed really
rc.local vs systemd is the main thing
probably lots of things i'm missing
[17:40]
up_the_ironsmercutio: so is /etc/init still used by systemd (was Upstart) [17:41]
mercutionope
but ubuntu has lots of legacy stuff
systemd isnt' too hard
[17:41]
mhoranHard isn't the point. Unnecessary change is.
mhoran hugs FreeBSD rc.d
[17:42]
mercutiosystemctl start ssh.service
systemctl enable ssh.service
[17:42]
up_the_ironsmhoran: yeah unnecessary changes are totally annoying [17:42]
mercutioi think that kind of way of doing things is pretty easy [17:42]
up_the_ironsas is over-engineering [17:42]
mercutiosure it's different, and seems really confusing at first
but it's not altogether bad
[17:42]
up_the_ironsmercutio: OK, so if I have an Upstart file in /etc/init, and I want to port it to work with systemd, where's the systemd version of /etc/init ? [17:43]
mhoranI still have to manage init.d scripts from services that haven't migrated, and then know to use systemctl vs /etc/init.d when I use different distros that haven't ugraded, and then balance that with FreeBSD /etc/rc.d ... and then OS X launchctl ... [17:43]
mercutiohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemdForUpstartUsers [17:44]
up_the_ironsmercutio: thanks :) [17:45]
mercutio/usr/lib/systemd/user i think
i use system/ though
[17:45]
up_the_ironsok [17:50]
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brycecWhat's wrong with /etc/systemd/{system,user} or is that not "in" Ubuntu?
I've always left /usr/lib/systemd for packaged services (sockets, timers, etc) and put my own hand-rolled in /etc/systemd/
[19:47]
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mercutiowell /etc is kind of meant to be local isn't it?
so if you want to have the units on multiple systems /usr seems to make sense
[20:25]
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brycecI'd still argue that /usr/local/* would be better-suited. But I have no idea if systemd itself uses/recognizes /usr/local for anything. [21:38]
mercutioi don't think it does. but yeh /usr/local was the standard
man hier seems to suggest that /usr/local isn't supported
[21:38]
brycecAccording to systemd.unit(5) it's /{etc,run,lib}/systemd/
Plus various user-level directories.
/etc/systemd/system │ Local configuration, /run/systemd/system │ Runtime units, /lib/systemd/system │ Units of installed packages
[21:40]
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mercutiowhat's /run/systemd
damn i'm behind aren't i
[21:50]
brycec/var/run is a symlink to /run these days
and /run is a tmpfs
(Manpage from Debian Jessie)
[21:50]
mercutioyeh i thought run had pid etc in it
so run having systemd units sounded strange
[21:55]
brycecI guess "runtime units" means temporary in this context [21:55]
mercutiodoes anyone here pay for lwn? [21:59]
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andolI do [23:15]
brycecHOORAY! Now that the console server is running a moderately recent OpenBSD, I can use ed25519 keys :D [23:16]
up_the_irons:) [23:23]

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