[01:55] <mike-burns> Every time I have to install GNU Bash for some program it makes me think: this developer could have picked any programming language, with any amount of expressivity and capability, and they picked GNU Bash?
[01:57] <up_the_irons> I tend to pick bash for simple tasks.  It's always installed everywhere, so I don't need to worry about it being a dependency.
[02:00] <mike-burns> I don't have it installed on anything, so I tend not to use it.
[02:08] <up_the_irons> i c
[02:09] <mercutio> i don't install bash on openbsd
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[04:03] <mhoran_> Also not installed on FreeBSD.
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[04:04] <mercutio> i think lots of ports depend on it in freebsd?
[04:05] <mhoran> I guess I don't have any of those ports installed.
[04:05] <mercutio> a lot of stuff needs gmake
[04:05] <mercutio> bloody gnu
[04:05] <mhoran> [mhoran@friction] ~% bash
[04:05] <mhoran> zsh: correct 'bash' to 'hash' [nyae]? n
[04:05] <mercutio> hahaha
[04:05] <mercutio> you don't need hash
[04:05] <mercutio> i installed zsh on opensolaris
[04:06] <mhoran> I also uninstall gmake every time a port installs it for build, and generally use packages so long as they don't pull X11 or something else insane.
[05:04] <mike-burns> Yeah same. Switching to packages has helped remove any GNU dependencies.
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[09:30] <brycec> I've come across a number of scripts that "relied on" bash only as far as calling it in the shabang, but didn't actually utilize bash-isms, the developer just didn't know any better to use /bin/sh :(
[09:31] <mike-burns> Or scripts with bash in the shebang but only so that they can declare functions using the GNU Bash syntax.
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[17:11] <nathani> https://www.facebook.com/owendelong/posts/10153204974284649
[17:36] <up_the_irons> someone correct me if I'm wrong.. but is the "service" command in Ubuntu Trusty part of Upstart, but on Xenial, it is systemd ?
[17:37] <up_the_irons> mercutio: ^^ :)
[17:37] <mhoran> Yup.
[17:37] <mhoran> On debian it routes to systemd somefuckinghow.
[17:37] <mhoran> I don't even understand how Linux works anymore.
[17:37] <mercutio> up_the_irons: it can also link to init.d i think
[17:38] <up_the_irons> well that's not confusing , is it
[17:38] * up_the_irons facepalms
[17:38] <mercutio> systemv started the confusion
[17:38] <mercutio> it escalated from there
[17:38] <up_the_irons> no wonder the etcd service script on my Xenial nodes don't work, yet the scripts are using it like upstart
[17:39] <up_the_irons> i swear to god i'm going to make my own linux distro
[17:39] <mercutio> systemd isn't actually too bad to use
[17:39] <mercutio> up_the_irons: good luck :)
[17:39] <up_the_irons> haha
[17:39] <up_the_irons> ARP Linux™ LOL
[17:39] <mhoran> I just have to learn all new tools that are different than the ones I've been using for 20 years.
[17:39] <up_the_irons> yeah it's so annoying
[17:39] <mercutio> then you can learn to love to hate autoconf, automake, etc.
[17:39] <mhoran> ... and different from the tools that I have to use on other systems.
[17:40] <up_the_irons> and you have to re-learn them every 2 years when the whole thing changes
[17:40] <mhoran> Yup.
[17:40] <mercutio> i haven't found much has changed really
[17:40] <mercutio> rc.local vs systemd is the main thing
[17:41] <mercutio> probably lots of things i'm missing
[17:41] <up_the_irons> mercutio: so is /etc/init still used by systemd (was Upstart)
[17:41] <mercutio> nope
[17:41] <mercutio> but ubuntu has lots of legacy stuff
[17:41] <mercutio> systemd isnt' too hard
[17:42] <mhoran> Hard isn't the point. Unnecessary change is.
[17:42] * mhoran hugs FreeBSD rc.d
[17:42] <mercutio> systemctl start ssh.service
[17:42] <mercutio> systemctl enable ssh.service
[17:42] <up_the_irons> mhoran: yeah unnecessary changes are totally annoying
[17:42] <mercutio> i think that kind of way of doing things is pretty easy
[17:42] <up_the_irons> as is over-engineering
[17:42] <mercutio> sure it's different, and seems really confusing at first
[17:43] <mercutio> but it's not altogether bad
[17:43] <up_the_irons> mercutio: OK, so if I have an Upstart file in /etc/init, and I want to port it to work with systemd, where's the systemd version of /etc/init ?
[17:43] <mhoran> I still have to manage init.d scripts from services that haven't migrated, and then know to use systemctl vs /etc/init.d when I use different distros that haven't ugraded, and then balance that with FreeBSD /etc/rc.d ... and then OS X launchctl ...
[17:44] <mercutio> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemdForUpstartUsers
[17:45] <up_the_irons> mercutio: thanks :)
[17:45] <mercutio>  /usr/lib/systemd/user i think
[17:48] <mercutio> i use system/ though
[17:50] <up_the_irons> ok
[19:47] <brycec> What's wrong with /etc/systemd/{system,user} or is that not "in" Ubuntu?
[19:47] <brycec> I've always left /usr/lib/systemd for packaged services (sockets, timers, etc) and put my own hand-rolled in /etc/systemd/
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[20:25] <mercutio> well /etc is kind of meant to be local isn't it?
[20:25] <mercutio> so if you want to have the units on multiple systems /usr seems to make sense
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[21:38] <brycec> I'd still argue that /usr/local/* would be better-suited. But I have no idea if systemd itself uses/recognizes /usr/local for anything.
[21:38] <mercutio> i don't think it does.  but yeh /usr/local was the standard
[21:39] <mercutio> man hier seems to suggest that /usr/local isn't supported
[21:40] <brycec> According to systemd.unit(5) it's /{etc,run,lib}/systemd/
[21:40] <brycec> Plus various user-level directories.
[21:41] <brycec>  /etc/systemd/system │ Local configuration, /run/systemd/system │ Runtime units, /lib/systemd/system │ Units of installed packages
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[21:50] <mercutio> what's /run/systemd
[21:50] <mercutio> damn i'm behind aren't i
[21:50] <brycec>  /var/run is a symlink to /run these days
[21:51] <brycec> and /run is a tmpfs
[21:51] <brycec> (Manpage from Debian Jessie)
[21:55] <mercutio> yeh i thought run had pid etc in it
[21:55] <mercutio> so run having systemd units sounded strange
[21:55] <brycec> I guess "runtime units" means temporary in this context
[21:59] <mercutio> does anyone here pay for lwn?
[23:15] <andol> I do
[23:16] <brycec> HOORAY! Now that the console server is running a moderately recent OpenBSD, I can use ed25519 keys :D
[23:23] <up_the_irons> :)