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[02:02] <mercutio> is it normal for the he.net tunnel servers to have high pings?
[02:02] <mercutio> maybe cos it's free
[02:03] <mercutio> i'm getting 135 to 145 msec ping to tunnel end point in lax, then like 190 msec to ge9-12.core1.lax1.he.net
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[02:28] <brycec> mercutio: You could check out https://smokeping.cobryce.com/?target=Internet.HENet
[02:29] <brycec> which fpings all HE tunnel endpoints from ARM
[02:29] <mercutio> ahh cool
[02:29] <mercutio> oh
[02:29] <mercutio> it's hop one after tunnel endpoint that's the issue
[02:29] <brycec> *ARP
[02:29] <mercutio> and it's an issue even getting to www.he.net over the tunnel from lax
[02:29] <mercutio> where www.he.net is in fremont afaik
[02:31] <mercutio> cool
[02:31] <mercutio> very useful none hte less
[02:31] <mercutio> https://smokeping.cobryce.com/?target=Internet.HENet.NorthAmerica.HEtserv15lax1v4
[02:31] <mercutio> looks coincidental
[02:32] <mercutio> but i'm on tserver15.lax1
[02:32] <mercutio> and it seemed to be getting worse and worse
[02:32] <brycec> That would be the same server
[02:33] <mercutio> it is
[02:33] <mercutio> it's called tserv anyway
[02:33] <mercutio> i wasn't thinking and completed it :)
[02:33] <brycec> you'd said "but I'm on" so I thought that you thought you were on a different one
[02:33] <brycec> (it's 02:31, I'm very tired)
[02:33] <mercutio> heh
[02:34] <brycec> (so I could've misread, or misunderstood)
[02:34] <mercutio> it sucks when you want to test stuff
[02:34] <mercutio> and then you find random other unrelated issues :/
[02:34] <mercutio> but it does seem that by far he.net having issues seems to be the central issue with arp ipv6 atm
[02:35] <mercutio> and it's hard to know if they're deprioritising tunnel servers or not
[02:35] <mercutio> you'd think they wouldn't because advertising and all
[02:37] <mercutio> looks like i should get fremont tunnel though
[02:38] <mercutio> hmm, los angeles is full now it says
[02:44] <mercutio> yeh fremont is more stable
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[10:35] <JC_Denton> i wonder if i could get a tour of he's fremont dc :D
[10:47] <grody> mercutio, is there a provider physically located in NZ that offers dedi (looking for a buddy)
[10:47] <grody> ?
[10:48] <grody> think it's you lives out that way...
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[12:49] <mercutio> grody: i'm not sure if there's anything good as far as good spec, service, network, etc.
[12:49] <mercutio> on front pages or anything
[12:51] <JC_Denton> ugh.  racking my brain trying to figure out how to save off ACLs & xattrs w/ rsnapshot/rsync to a ZFS share.  i guess this would be the only way: http://superuser.com/questions/247689/backup-file-attributes-restore-them-later
[12:53] <mercutio> JC_Denton: that looks like a way
[12:53] <mercutio> i don't envy your position :)
[12:53] <JC_Denton> mercutio: yeah.  i could run the job after rsnapshot runs.  my only concern would be if the file's ACL is changed during that time.
[12:53] <JC_Denton> seems unlikely, though.
[12:54] <mercutio> is this for windows acl's or something
[12:54] <JC_Denton> nah, POSIX
[12:54] <JC_Denton> have some interesting dirs that allow things like Apache to write, other users to individually access & execute files, etc.
[12:55] <mercutio> maybe i should try that
[12:55] <mercutio> i've always used the normal unix permission system
[12:55] <mercutio> hangon
[12:55] <mercutio> so you have them on zfs
[12:55] <JC_Denton> i like the ACLs, a lot more powerful
[12:55] <JC_Denton> nah
[12:55] <mercutio> oh
[12:55] <JC_Denton> i setup a NAS with ZFS
[12:56] <JC_Denton> and i'm trying to backup with rsnapshot
[12:56] <mercutio> i see
[12:56] <JC_Denton> which i've done to another ext4 system w/o issue, obviously :)
[12:56] <mercutio> i was going to ask why you're using rsnapshot instead of zfs snapshot
[12:56] <JC_Denton> but yeah, with no xattr support on ZFS for FreeBSD
[12:56] <JC_Denton> i'm kinda up the creek w/o a paddle
[12:56] <mercutio> you could make a zfs volume on it
[12:56] <JC_Denton> hm?
[12:56] <mercutio> and put ext4 on it :/
[12:56] <mercutio> zfs create -V 200G raid/aclbackup
[12:57] <mercutio> or something
[12:57] <mercutio> then mkfs.ext4fs /dev/zvol/raid/aclbacku
[12:57] <mercutio> +p
[12:57] <mercutio> sure it's not as clean
[12:58] <JC_Denton> an interesting idea
[12:58] <JC_Denton> but
[12:58] <mercutio> hmm, opensolaris had acl support
[12:58] <JC_Denton> no EA/ACL support on FreeBSD's extfs
[12:58] <mercutio> ahh
[12:59] <JC_Denton> my really hideous thought is to just make a huge ext4 container served out over NFS that the rsnapshot hosts mount
[12:59] <JC_Denton> but to me that's hideous
[12:59] <JC_Denton> so maybe the recursive getfacl solution is the trick
[12:59] <mercutio> so the basic problem is not in zfs but in freebsd?
[12:59] <JC_Denton> yeah, because Linux w/ ZFS supports xattrs and POSIX ACLs
[13:00] <mercutio> then maybe you shoudl just use linux? :)
[13:00] * mercutio is not suggesting windows
[13:00] <mercutio> zfs on linux works ok
[13:01] <JC_Denton> *shrug*
[13:01] <JC_Denton> i bought a freenas mini, so it's running freenas
[13:01] <JC_Denton> i actually kind of like it
[13:08] <mercutio> ahh.
[13:08] <mercutio> i just do things the manual way :)
[13:08] <JC_Denton> i usually do the same until i get an admin headache ;)
[13:11] <mercutio> i'm still wondering about grody's dedicated question :)
[13:11] <mercutio> and where i'd go to try and get dedicated server heh
[13:11] <JC_Denton> i could probably ask someone that lives out that way
[13:12] <mercutio> the cheapest i've found so far is $295+GST
[13:13] <mercutio> and that was without even having redundant power.
[13:15] <mercutio> at least that list prices
[13:15] <mercutio> there is somewhere i know is cheaper, but they have always been on the dubious side to me
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[13:21] <mercutio> there's actually quite a few places that do it it seems
[13:21] <mercutio> but they all to have high prices for old hardware
[13:23] <mercutio> like $250 for dell poweredge 1950 with 2gb of ram and 1 har-didsk
[13:23] <brycec> I thought tar and rsync both had switches to enable ACL copying. Think rsync's was X
[13:24] <brycec>         -A, --acls                  preserve ACLs (implies -p)
[13:24] <brycec>         -X, --xattrs                preserve extended attributes
[13:24] <brycec> from my man page for rsync 3.1.1
[13:24] <mercutio> he's using rsnapshot though brycec ?
[13:24] <mercutio> which does symlinks etc.
[13:25] <mercutio> so even if tar and rsync can support acl's then if the underlying filesystem doesn't support it you're in a dark place.
[13:25] <brycec> (Unless I'm missing something, which I could well be)
[13:25] <brycec> mercutio: I was going with12:48:35      JC_Denton | ugh.  racking my brain trying to figure out how to save off ACLs & xattrs w/ rsnapshot/rsync to a ZFS share.
[13:25] <mercutio> oh hmm
[13:25] <mercutio> i suppose it could end in tarball on the server :)
[13:26] <mercutio> and still meet that
[13:26] <brycec> But apparently I was wrong about FreeBSD's ZFS supporting them in the first place. 12:53:57      JC_Denton | but yeah, with no xattr support on ZFS for FreeBSD
[13:26] <mercutio> freebsd might now
[13:26] <mercutio> freenas usually lags behind
[13:27] <mercutio> apparently freebsd supports nfsv4 acl's
[13:27] <brycec> "man zfs" says xattr "is currently not supported on FreeBSD" for 10.1
[13:27] <brycec> but acl stuff is still good
[13:28] <mercutio> https://clusterhq.com/2014/09/11/zfs-suitable-replacement-file-system/
[13:28] <mercutio> this seems to haev a table
[13:29] <brycec> Or as you sorta-mentioned earlier, he could create disk volumes, exported over iscsi and mounted on each system
[13:29] <brycec> Then every guest can format it whatever filesystem works best for the machine being backed up, including ext4 with full ACL/xattr support
[13:30] <mercutio> there's something dirty about using iscsi for a backup system :)
[13:30] <brycec> I disagree
[13:30] <mercutio> a lot of os's go funny if backup server has issues
[13:30] <mercutio> if using iscsi, nfs etc.
[13:31] <brycec> Can't say I've ever experienced that myself
[13:31] <mercutio> well if it's down or such
[13:31] <mercutio> i suppose as long as you have your cron script so it checks that its' not already running and don't type df it's not toob ad
[13:32] <mercutio> although tehre can be things like locate etc too
[13:32] <brycec> Last I checked, locate's default config didn't index netfs mounts
[13:32] <brycec> (on Debian)
[13:32] <brycec> (but it's been awhile since I cared)
[13:33] <brycec> (And it's easy enough to add further exceptions)
[13:34] <mercutio> hmm.
[13:34] <mercutio> what do you think JC?
[13:36] <JC_Denton> iscsi was my next thought, but meh
[13:36] <JC_Denton> seems like a PITA for such a small backup set
[13:37] <mercutio> heh
[13:37] <JC_Denton> i think i could use rsnapshot's post exec to do the recursive getfacl
[13:37] <mercutio> it's probably a hell of a lot easier
[13:37] <JC_Denton> trying to decide if i could live with the small and significant chance of the ACL changing
[13:37] <brycec> Are you actively using acls/xattrs? It's been my limited experience that people don't, so perhaps you're not actually losing anything?
[13:38] <mercutio> it sounded like he was
[13:38] <JC_Denton> brycec: yeah, i'm using ACLs
[13:38] <mercutio> i think the chance of losing things is similar to the chance of losing things from not backing up frequently enough
[13:38] <JC_Denton> i was using xattrs too at one point courtesy of SELinux, but i've since turned that system off
[13:38] <mercutio> if you're behind in time and some permissions don't work properly that you just applied
[13:38] <mercutio> then at least it'll be stuff you've done recently that you were checking anyway
[13:39] <mercutio> because you had to restore from backup..
[13:39] <brycec> There's also the point to be made that if you're backing up data, you care about the data and not so much the properties of the files. (I worded that funny)
[13:39] <brycec> (tl;dr At least you backed up the contents of the files)
[13:39] <mercutio> and having recent data with outdated permissions seems better than having stale data with up to date permissions
[13:39] <brycec> ^ or no data at all ;P
[13:40] <mercutio> no data at all sounds easier :)
[13:40] <mercutio> why would people want data anyway!
[13:40] <brycec> You can always just create new data
[13:40] <mercutio> that's how i used to feel about backups
[13:41] <mercutio> why would you want to cling onto the past? :)
[13:41] <mercutio> uhh for personal stuff that is
[13:41] <JC_Denton> yeah
[13:42] <JC_Denton> shame ZFS on BSD doesn't have xattr
[13:42] <JC_Denton> worse shame i think is that Linux doesn't support the richacls ZFS/NFSv4 has
[13:42] <JC_Denton> well, support w/o patching the kernel and a ton of coreutils
[13:43] <mercutio> aren't nfs acl's better than posix acl's?
[13:43] <mercutio> i wonder if it's possible to store the stuff using nfs acl's rather than posix acl's
[13:44] <mercutio> NFSv4/Windows ACLs are more fine-grained than POSIX ACLs.
[13:45] <mercutio> so freebsd supports nfs acl's, so does freenas support?  nfs may be simpler than iscsi
[13:45] <mercutio> or it may be possible to use them anyway with rsync or such somehow
[13:45] <brycec> Or maybe just store a copy of the acls/xattrs (getfacls > blah) alongside the backup - no worries whether the underlying filesystem supports it, and no information lost.
[13:45] <JC_Denton> brycec: that's the current plan, the issue is what happens if the ACL changes in between that short time
[13:46] <JC_Denton> mercutio: yeah, rich/nfs acls are nicer, but there's no native linux support for them and rsync can't convert between thet wo
[13:47] <brycec> JC_Denton: take a dump before and a dump after. then compare the two after the copy
[13:51] <brycec> Heck even rsync isn't invulnerable to that and will complain if files have disappeared since rsync started running
[13:51] <brycec> That's why people take filesystem snapshots, backup from that, and destroy the snapshot when complete
[13:51] <brycec> So nothing is changing during the backup (relative to the backup process)
[13:52] <JC_Denton> actually, duplicity might be a better bet for this, no?
[13:52] <JC_Denton> since it tarballs first
[13:53] <brycec> You could just tar in the first place for that matter
[13:53] <brycec> Of course depending on how long the tar takes, you're looking at the same issue
[13:53] <brycec> I think it really boils down to how do you want your backup files, JC_Denton
[13:53] <JC_Denton> *sigh*
[13:53] <BryceBot> *sigh*
[13:53] <JC_Denton> https://bugs.launchpad.net/duplicity/+bug/558385
[13:54] <brycec> eg: rsnapshot-like, just a bunch of dated tar files, something more advanced with incremental backups, etc
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[14:22] <m0unds> damn. caught my headphone cable on my chair and broke the suspension hardware on the left side.
[14:22] <m0unds> audio-technica discontinued them too. grr.
[14:34] <mercutio> hmm, zsh just made a huge change to cut and paste
[14:34] <mercutio> i'm still trying to figure out how to deal with it :)
[14:35] <mercutio> basically if you cut and paste stuff with new lines in it it will come through as a new line, rather than the end of a statement.
[14:37] <mercutio> oh it's not so bad, you can still do multiple commands, you just press enter to do them all
[14:40] <mike-burns> I'm in favor.
[14:40] <mercutio> yeh as soon as i realised you can press enter  and do them all it's fine
[14:41] <mercutio> i used to stick echo on the front of stuff i was cut and pasting
[14:41] <mercutio> so as to not run it
[14:41] <mercutio> or #
[14:42] <mercutio> hopefully it makes the next ubuntu lts
[14:43] <mercutio> actually it should
[14:46] <mercutio> main concern would be getting used to it, and finding it hardly anywhere
[14:53] <JC_Denton> just rolled a quick ruby script to do the acl and xattr dump on all three rsnapshot instances.  cross your fingers for me :)
[14:55] * mercutio crosses fingers
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[22:29] <mercutio> seems to be around once an hour
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