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mercutio: but i founud something really handy recently; zstyle ':completion:*' rehash true
<br> it means you don't have to type rehash after installing packages
mnathani_: does pacman work kind of like yum and apt-get ?
mercutio: yeah
<br> "pacman -S zsh" will install zsh
<br> "pacman -Ss zsh" will search for packages that mention zsh
<br> -Ss happens to list grml-zsh-config first fwiw
<br> what still weirds me out is juust how much faster packages install on zsh compared to ubuntu
<br> the difference is very noticable
<br> pacman -S --noconfirm nano 0.09s user 0.03s system 47% cpu 0.251 total
<br> that includes the download
<br> apt-get -y install nano 0.73s user 0.17s system 36% cpu 2.467 total
<br> so yeah including download it's about 10x as fast for small packages
<br> and even if download was instant, ubuntu uses so much cpu/disk/etc that it's still slow
<br> s/zsh/arch/
BryceBot: <mercutio> what still weirds me out is juust how much faster packages install on arch compared to ubuntu
mnathani_: I am linking arch's documentation
<br> s/linking/liking
BryceBot: <mnathani_> I am liking arch's documentation
mercutio: yeh even if you use ubuntuu it's still useful :)
mnathani_: how do I install pkgtools
<br> or startx
mercutio: pkgtools?
mnathani_: You can use pkgfile to know which package own a file. pkgfile is bundled in the pkgtools package
mercutio: oh it's in aur
<br> you need to install cower or such
<br> https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/cower/
mnathani_: so pacman -S cower ?
mercutio: i use "meat"
<br> nah it's in aur :/
<br> so it's a pita to get the first one
<br> https://github.com/falconindy/cower
<br> so grab that then do makepkg -s
BryceBot: That's what she said!!
mercutio: then pacman -u the .xz file
<br> err pacman -U
<br> then you can do cower -s to serach
<br> and cower -d to download
<br> cower will download into current directory making a new directory for the package
mnathani_: I need ssh server first
mercutio: i'd recommend downloading meat first
mnathani_: so I can copy paste
mercutio: heh
<br> is this on a vm or bare metal?
mnathani_: vm
mercutio: ahh
<br> i'm doing an arch template for arp
mnathani_: volunteer / paid ?
<br> or in exchange for Vms and ips / bandwidth :-)
mercutio: heh
<br> so there shoudl be templates early for debian, openbsd etc that are coming out
mnathani_: I always prefer installing my own os
mercutio: i prefer having auto install for vm's normally
<br> what i hate is when it forces icky things on you
<br> like most of those solusvm providers have sendmail and so on
<br> because someone's done terrible templates that seem to lack useful things like man
<br> but have SENDMAIL
<br> when it's not even default
mnathani_: I got ssh working now
<br> cloned the cower repo
mercutio: cool
<br> then just makepkg -s on it
mnathani_: ==> ERROR: Running makepkg as root is not allowed as it can cause permanent, catastrophic damage to your system.
mercutio: yeh youu have to sudo it :)
mnathani_: Could not chdir to home directory /home/mnathani: No such file or directory
mercutio: useradd doesn't add home directory
mnathani_: so it seems
mercutio: err doesn't create
<br> yeah it's core unix
<br> adduser is a fancy nice script
<br> you hit the same kind of issues on solaris
mnathani_: <u>bash</u>: adduser: command not found
mercutio: yeah they don't include adduser
<br> just mkdir ~mnathani
<br> chown mnathani ~mnathani
<br> i'm not using cower/meat everywhere fwiw
<br> you can get by without it pretty well
<br> you can just install xorg-xinit
<br> i use lightdm though
mnathani_: ==> ERROR: PKGBUILD does not exist.
mercutio: and it looks really ugly, but i don't care, because i just login :)
mnathani_: when executing the makepkg under mnathani account
mercutio: are you in the build/cower directory
<br> i use /src/builds to store all of mine
<br> where src is zfs with set mountpoint
mnathani_: > /home/mnathani/cower
mercutio: so youu're in the cower directory?
mnathani_: I am
mercutio: and you can do ls -l PKGBUILD ?
mnathani_: <u>ls</u>: cannot access PKGBUILD: No such file or directory
mercutio: there's the issue
<br> you sure it's not in a subdir?
<br> like cower/cower :)
mnathani_: 6 files in there
<br> config
<br> cower.c
<br> etc
<br> Makefile
mercutio: it's not got the package hmm
<br> is that the src/ directory ?
<br> bah
mnathani_: nope
<br> no src dir
mercutio: just curl -O https://weallsee.net/PKGBUILD
<br> i uploaded it there
mnathani_: thanks
<br> sorry for all the newbie questions
mercutio: yeah it's a pita
<br> i mean cower is
mnathani_: I really need to catch up on reading manuals
mercutio: it's easier once you have it :)
<br> then you need sudo pacman -U cower-12-2-x86_64.pkg.tar.xz
mnathani_: error after error
mercutio: oh?
mnathani_: first it wants me to be a sudoer
mercutio: what's it doing?
mnathani_: I added mysefl to sudo file
mercutio: su to yourself
<br> if you added yourself to sudo group
mnathani_: now its checking pgp signature
mercutio: otherwise you're not part of the group
mnathani_: ==> ERROR: One or more PGP signatures could not be verified!
mercutio: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/cower/
<br> Just a quick thanks to runical, adding "keyserver-options auto-key-retrieve" to my ~/.gnupg/gpg.conf fixed the error I was getting.
<br> it really is a pita isn't it
mnathani_: <u>error</u>: you cannot perform this operation unless you are root.
<br> first it complains as I am root
<br> then I am not sudo
<br> then I am not root
mercutio: heh what does it need root for?
mnathani_: [mnathani@Arch cower]$ pacman -U cower-12.tar.gz
mercutio: curl -O https://weallsee.net/cower-12-2-x86_64.pkg.tar.xz
<br> oh
<br> you have to -U the pkg.tar.xz file
<br> and /that/ needs you to sudo for it
<br> sudo pacman -U cower-12-2...
<br> cower-12.tar.gz is the source
<br> makepkg -s should have made that package
BryceBot: That's what she said!!
mnathani_: ok, cool its installed now
mercutio: oh sweet
<br> so makepkg -s worked fine?
mnathani_: used the one you linked
mercutio: now in your build directory do cower -d meat
<br> and cd meat
<br> and makepkg -s
<br> and install meat
<br> then it's easy to install stuff :)
<br> there's heaps of alternatives
mnathani_: <u>error</u>: no results found for meat
mercutio: but meat works fine for me
<br> it maybe meat-git
<br> yeah it's meat-git :)
mnathani_: what else should exist in my build dir
<br> can I just use /root/build ?
mercutio: nope because you have to build as a normal user
<br> and normal user can't access /root
<br> i dunno what other people do, but i like /src vs /usr/src
<br> and i like having an extra directory for package stuff
<br> some people probably usr /usr/local/src
<br> but /src is much easier to complete to
mnathani_: not using root user is new to me
mercutio: heh yeh
mnathani_: I usually run everything as root
mercutio: not using root is growing on me a little
mnathani_: except maybe weechat
mercutio: yeh i used to root for everything system related
<br> i figure it's more secure having seperate root / normal logins
<br> when you can just sudo su or sudo any command as normal user
<br> it's like your normal user is root
<br> there are a few advantages though
<br> like if you have multiple people doing stuff you can tell who did stuff easier
mnathani_: accounting on a shared system
<br> does arch download everything as source and build
<br> rather than get a binary?
mercutio: aur stuff yeh
<br> but not for normal packages
mnathani_: whats aur again?
mercutio: arch user repository
<br> it's where lots of people submit various packages
<br> quality can vary
BryceBot: That's what she said!!
mercutio: so like infiniband stuff is in there
<br> dropbear is in there it seems
<br> memtest86-efi is in there
<br> ttf-google-fonts-git is in there
<br> none of it is really essential to everyone
mnathani_: how does it compare to say an ubuntu rep
mercutio: it's like universe/multiverse
<br> compared to the standard rep
<br> except it's kind of more like the extra ubuntu repositorys you can add from external
mnathani_: how would I go about installing kde and x
mercutio: kde is in base
mnathani_: the kde instructions said have a xserver working before install
<br> and thats when I couldnt get startx working
mercutio: just pacman -S lightdm
<br> or gdm or whatever you're into
mnathani_: should that bring in the startx command ?
mercutio: nah
<br> it'll go straight to gui
<br> xorg-xinit will give you startx
mnathani_: apt-get install xorg-xinit >> bash: apt-get: command not found
<br> :-)
<br> 2 packages: plasma vs plasma-meta
mercutio: hahaa
mnathani_: which one has more stuff
mercutio: meta probably?
<br> i dununo :)
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brycec: pacman -Qo /path/to/file 00:50:02 mnathani_ | You can use pkgfile to know which package own a file.
<br> Personally, mercutio/mnathani_ I'm a fan of yaourt which builds-in sudo, searches ABS and AUR, handles updates, everything! Eg: "yaourt -Syua" update package lists and install updated packages including checking AUR for updated packages.
m0unds: i read that as yaogurt
mike-burns: The character from Spaceballs?
m0unds: yeah, haha
brycec: Also, "makepkg -i" to build + install (with sudo)
<br> mike-burns: The French for yogurt.
<br> I imagine if you're wanting KDE, you'd use kdm, fwiw.
RandalSchwartz: slow day today :)
brycec: Most days :p
m0unds: http://blog.pcbsd.org/2015/04/pc-bsd-and-4k-oh-my/ mercutio
mercutio: <u>brycec</u>: i mentioned there were alternatives :)
<br> there are shit loads of them :)
<br> havingg similar syntax to pacman sounds nice though
<br> <u>m0unds</u>: my monitor defaulted to supporting 60 hz, but only through displayport
<br> this motherboard does 4k with onboard video @60 hertz, but only has mini display port. i ordered a display port adapter off ebay, and it's come already. it looks like it's hard to do 60 hortz with onboard video in general.
<br> when i read about that guy going with two 4k monitors taht' is actually a little bit of an issue, because people usually only have one displayport port
himuraken: They can be chained usually.
BryceBot: That's what she said!!
m0unds: <u>BryceBot</u>: no
BryceBot: Oh, okay... I'm sorry. 'They can be chained usually.'
m0unds: (lol)
brycec: I liked it for a twss :P
himuraken: Am I wrong?
m0unds: no, i was laughing at the bot
himuraken: Lol gotcha
m0unds: looks like w/displayport 1.2 you can only drive a single 4k or 2k display per port
brycec: Provided the intermediate display supports it, and the display adapter. And 4K maxes out DisplayPort v1.2 bandwidth, so no chaining there.
<br> http://www.displayport.org/cables/driving-multiple-displays-from-a-single-displayport-output/
m0unds: yeah
brycec: lol m0unds
m0unds: that's what i was just looking at
<br> i remembered seeing it though, must have just been w/1080p displays
brycec: It's news to me, but I have 0 DP displays so no reason I would know :p
m0unds: my desktop monitor has dp, but i use dvi because i didn't have a dp cable
brycec: Definitely seems very, very cool. Alas, only my desktop has DP (I think... I know my last gfx card did) so it's not a priority.
mnathani_: <u>brycec</u>: so the bot collects all these twss, does it replay them sometime ?
brycec: I'm not understanding the question
mnathani_: do we ever hear back from the bot as in repeat all these phrases that have been recorded
<br> or is it more like a one time <BryceBot> That's what she said!! << comment and thats it
brycec: it doesn't work like that... "twss" trains a bayesian net, akin to spam training. When you "twss" something, it trains the sentence as something "she would say" and that's it. It's not "collected"
<br> (besides by IRC logs, but that's a totally separate thing)
mnathani_: I see
<br> what distribution / BSD most closely resembles archlinux ?
brycec: "distribution" almost exclusively refers to Linux, so... the closest Linux to Archlinux would have to be Archlinux.
<br> (though VoidLinux might be a close second)
<br> For BSD's, I'd say FreeBSD
<br> (but take that with a grain of salt - I've only ever used Open, Net, and FreeBSD)
mnathani_: is Arch a top level linux, or does it have an upstream?
mkb: none of them
<br> they are all much more conservative than archlinux
brycec: <u>mnathani_</u>: Top
-: mkb remembers when he used to use arch and had all this free time for messing with my computer
brycec: I still use Arch and it doesn't require all sorts of free time. Unlike Gentoo... (but that was a long time ago)
twobithacker: I should play with Dragonfly more
grody: is anyone experience serious lag?
RandalSchwartz: I am
grody: i cant use my vps for ♥ nor money
<br> nvm.. stupid sendmail decided to go on a rampage
<br> i killed that ages ago in place of postfix and its rearing it's butt ugly face again
<br> if i had £1 for everytime i forgot to add a new mail alias for root to point to a valid mta, i would be having enough money to buy everyone a round of beer
<br> kern.ipc.maxpipekva exceeded; see tuning(7) is such a lovely message when sendmail/mailwrapper gets in a knot about having nowhere to send anything then just queues
brycec: lol grody
mercutio: i'd say netbsd is more like arch than freebsd
brycec: <u>mercutio</u>: What about Dfly or PCBSD? Have you tried those, do they relate at all?
mercutio: <u>brycec</u>: i awnt to try dragonfly but i haven't
brycec: (siteXX.tgz ftw - one of my install.site/upgrade.site's tasks is to ensure there's a sane alias)
mercutio: but considering they forked freebsd 4, where freebsd started to destabilise, i think it's on the conserwative side
-: grody misses his 4.11 box
mercutio: freebsd 2 and 4 were pretty stable
grody: had that from bleeding edge til about a year ago, when the actual hardware systematically died.. was my best file server ever
mercutio: was there a freebsd 3?
<br> ahh there was 3 but it was shortlived
grody: PCBSD is basically FreeBSD, but all GUId up for you
mercutio: sounds annoying :)
grody: archlinux is a beast on it's own and is a linux i enjoy next to gentoo.. and if i were to say FreeBSD was like any linux, i would say it was an easy to use gentoo
mercutio: freebsd kind of annoys me
grody: and i never thought i would read myself typing that
mercutio: freebsd feels more like redhat
grody: "an easy to use gentoo"
<br> gawd no, redhat is S^&!
<br> wouldn't excrete on it even if it's immolation spelt $500 to put me out
mercutio: freebsd is more unstable than netbsd or openbsd
grody: freebsd has lost it's way in the last few years, that is fgor sure
<br> i blame apple
mercutio: netbsd is lean and mean like arch :)
<br> did you ever use slackware grody ?
grody: never actually used netbsd for anything more than pottering on
<br> mercutio, for a while.. until i found gentoo
mercutio: ahh ok
grody: then my hair started thinning...
mercutio: i tried using gentoo
<br> i didn't like it
grody: trinux was something i used to use a lot, a floppy based slackware
<br> yea gentoo can be infuriating
mercutio: it was a very long time ago actually
grody: only using it again atm as im trying to build "the perfect linux" for my tablet, since there is absolutely no or little "official" support, so im stealing drivers and what not from androids that are suspected to work the wifi and touchscreen (only two things holding me back)
<br> but it's taken bloody ages to get things even barely right
mercutio: heh
<br> sounds like a huge time sink
grody: it is :(
<br> but windows 8.1 is the only other option (even android x86 has "issues"_
<br> )
mercutio: windows 10?
<br> you know you want to :)
<br> it's just a tablet
grody: i have the TP on my laptop.. not bad, but i wouldn't put it down as tablet friendly
<br> haha
mercutio: i have tp on my desktop
grody: for a low ended thing, it's pretty damned fast
<br> ahh crap and now my slave laptop is useless again... i have too much crap going on on this thing
mercutio: i wonder if any project levering arch is going to make significant headway
<br> like ubuntu is to debian
grody: compiling AOSP for my Sony phone, compiling stuff in Gentoo and now it's gone into meltdown as SWMBO wants to transcode a blueray for the Roku
<br> i only came online to make sure the new box i just put on my network isnt revealing anything to the innerwebs
mercutio: <u>brycec</u>: what do you think of arch linux for servers?
grody: mercutio, i think Mint did a better working of debian, although they say it's ubuntu derived.. i never got that fully
<br> use Mint quite a lot in fact :/
<br> have arch on the pogoplug
<br> thats currently a backup MTA and web server/.. it /seems/ to have held for some months now
mercutio: postfix broke recently for me :/
<br> but i haven't had many issues
<br> and it was quite easy to fix
grody: yea, postfix did something weird for me too after an upgrade
<br> some execs moved location and didn't get fixed in a config
mercutio: ahh
<br> yes that's the issue i had too ;)
grody: symlinked the fuckers
mercutio: i just fixed the config file
grody: i didnt have time to do that.. but since im online now, i may as well
mercutio: daemon_directory = /usr/lib/postfix/bin
<br> i think that was it
<br> i think it was without the /bin before
grody: yea
<br> rehash
<br> bleah, wrong terminal
mercutio: <u>grody</u>: zstyle ':completion:*' rehash true
-: grody uses csh
mercutio: ahh
grody: dont know why, always have since day 1 of freebsd and stuck since
mercutio: typing rehash sucks :)
grody: dont usually install new stuff that often
mercutio: yeah but the amount of times you want to complete on something you've just installed is probably high
grody: Fetching mtr-nox11-0.86.txz: 100% 42 KiB 43.5kB/s 00:01
<br> <u>pkg</u>: cached package mtr-nox11-0.86: size mismatch, fetching from remote
<br> thats annoying
<br> i can sense things are only to get worse if i dig deeper so im going to crack open a brew and watch TV instead :D
brycec: <u>grody</u>: Mint was originally forked from Debian, but later on they re-based off Ubuntu.
<br> <u>mercutio</u>: As a "professional practice" I think rolling releases in production are a Bad Idea(tm).
<br> Though even in "production" if updates are carefully checked and tested before being deployed, it's fine.
mercutio: yeah there are some caveats
brycec: I've run it personally. But when it boils down to it, I need a server that doesn't have an 80% chance of breaking when I update, so I stick with "released" things like Debian and OpenBSD :D
mercutio: i don't think that it's rolling release is necessarily the biggest issue
<br> it's more that it's hard to know what will break where
grody: i never had any issues with FreeBSD until 9/10
<br> 4 to 5, 5 to 6, 6 to 8 all fine.. 9 and 10.. wow
brycec: 9+ eh? That's about when they added ZFS support. Coincidence? :P
RandalSchwartz: and MIMD
grody: but upgrades where all manual and only really security fixes using former portaudit and portupgrade (now seems to all be in pkg)
RandalSchwartz: and a bunch of other things
<br> I'm renting a cheap box at digitalocean running not-zfs-on-root (since they don't support it) build my 8.x, 9.x, and 10.x packages.
<br> by cheap, I'm saying $5/month
<br> and it has 20 GB SSD.
<br> that'll make my migrations easier
<br> I'm tempted to make a ZFS fs by mounting it as a file.
<br> so I'd just have an outer shim to hold the OS, and everything else would be ZFS on a legacy fs.
<br> I've asked them for ZFS on root and it's not on their roadmap
m0unds: netbsd is pretty conservative. stuff doesn't change on their release branch unless they work in security fixes
<br> their releng guys do a pretty good job (which is why 7 was delayed repeatedly)
RandalSchwartz: the freebsd fixit shell is only on the dvd1 release, right?
mjp__: you'll get a shell on the cd image
RandalSchwartz: not dis1
<br> disc1
<br> fixit shell not there
mercutio: <u>m0unds</u>: they release often though compared to freebsd
<br> and debian
m0unds: what?
mercutio: actually freebsd used to release rpetty often
m0unds: freebsd rolled 10.0 last year, 10.1 this year
<br> netbsd rolled 6.1 tree last year, iirc
<br> and they've done 3 minor point releases since (which were all security fixes iirc)
mercutio: ahh maybe i'm just nto following it as much
<br> 9 to 10 took ages
brycec: 9 to 10 was only about a year
mercutio: nah it was way more than a year
m0unds: NetBSD 6.1 was released in May 2013
<br> they're still on that tree
<br> so no, they're not fast :)
mercutio: it's 6.1.5 now though
brycec: And prior to that was 2009
m0unds: all the minor point releases were security fixes
<br> i don't think they did much in the way of feature roll-ups
mercutio: ahh
brycec: (3.5 years between releases :p)
mercutio: isn't freebsd 9.2 to 9.3 bug fixes too?
<br> freebsd 9 was 2012
<br> freebsd 10 2014
<br> ok it's not that long between releases
<br> seems to be a couple of years
<br> so freebsd 11 next year?
RandalSchwartz: oh... it looks like the 9.x releases can boot disk1 into a livefs mode
<br> so it's only the 8.x stream disc1 that doesn't have livefs
mercutio: i think where i thought freebsd 10 took aes is i read about stuff coming in 10 ages ago
<br> but like there's stuff coming in 11 out now
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