#arpnetworks 2015-04-22,Wed

mercutio

i'd recommend downloading meat first

mnathani_

so I can copy paste

mercutio

heh
is this on a vm or bare metal?

mnathani_

mercutio

ahh
i'm doing an arch template for arp

mnathani_

volunteer / paid ?
or in exchange for Vms and ips / bandwidth :-)

[00:56]

mercutio

heh
so there shoudl be templates early for debian, openbsd etc that are coming out

[00:56]

mnathani_

I always prefer installing my own os

[00:58]

mercutio

i prefer having auto install for vm's normally
what i hate is when it forces icky things on you
like most of those solusvm providers have sendmail and so on
because someone's done terrible templates that seem to lack useful things like man
but have SENDMAIL
when it's not even default

[00:59]

mnathani_

I got ssh working now
cloned the cower repo

[01:02]

mercutio

cool
then just makepkg -s on it

mnathani_

==> ERROR: Running makepkg as root is not allowed as it can cause permanent, catastrophic damage to your system.

mercutio

yeh youu have to sudo it :)

mnathani_

Could not chdir to home directory /home/mnathani: No such file or directory

mercutio

useradd doesn't add home directory

mnathani_

so it seems

mercutio

err doesn't create
yeah it's core unix
adduser is a fancy nice script
you hit the same kind of issues on solaris

mnathani_

bash: adduser: command not found

[01:05]

mercutio

yeah they don't include adduser
just mkdir ~mnathani
chown mnathani ~mnathani
i'm not using cower/meat everywhere fwiw
you can get by without it pretty well
you can just install xorg-xinit
i use lightdm though

[01:05]

mnathani_

==> ERROR: PKGBUILD does not exist.

[01:07]

mercutio

and it looks really ugly, but i don't care, because i just login :)

[01:07]

mnathani_

when executing the makepkg under mnathani account

[01:08]

mercutio

are you in the build/cower directory
i use /src/builds to store all of mine
where src is zfs with set mountpoint

[01:08]

mnathani_

> /home/mnathani/cower

[01:08]

mercutio

so youu're in the cower directory?

mnathani_

I am

mercutio

and you can do ls -l PKGBUILD ?

mnathani_

ls: cannot access PKGBUILD: No such file or directory

mercutio

there's the issue
you sure it's not in a subdir?
like cower/cower :)

mnathani_

6 files in there
config
cower.c
etc
Makefile

[01:10]

mercutio

it's not got the package hmm
is that the src/ directory ?
bah

[01:10]

mnathani_

nope
no src dir

[01:10]

mercutio

just curl -O https://weallsee.net/PKGBUILD
i uploaded it there

[01:11]

mnathani_

thanks
sorry for all the newbie questions

[01:12]

mercutio

yeah it's a pita
i mean cower is

[01:12]

mnathani_

I really need to catch up on reading manuals

[01:12]

mercutio

it's easier once you have it :)
then you need sudo pacman -U cower-12-2-x86_64.pkg.tar.xz

[01:13]

mnathani_

error after error

mercutio

oh?

mnathani_

first it wants me to be a sudoer

mercutio

what's it doing?

mnathani_

I added mysefl to sudo file

mercutio

su to yourself
if you added yourself to sudo group

mnathani_

now its checking pgp signature

mercutio

otherwise you're not part of the group

mnathani_

==> ERROR: One or more PGP signatures could not be verified!

[01:15]

mercutio

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/cower/
Just a quick thanks to runical, adding "keyserver-options auto-key-retrieve" to my ~/.gnupg/gpg.conf fixed the error I was getting.
it really is a pita isn't it

[01:15]

mnathani_

error: you cannot perform this operation unless you are root.
first it complains as I am root
then I am not sudo
then I am not root

[01:15]

mercutio

heh what does it need root for?

[01:16]

mnathani_

[mnathani@Arch cower]$ pacman -U cower-12.tar.gz

[01:16]

mercutio

curl -O https://weallsee.net/cower-12-2-x86_64.pkg.tar.xz
oh
you have to -U the pkg.tar.xz file
and /that/ needs you to sudo for it
sudo pacman -U cower-12-2...
cower-12.tar.gz is the source
makepkg -s should have made that package

[01:16]

BryceBot

That's what she said!!

[01:17]

mnathani_

ok, cool its installed now

[01:17]

mercutio

oh sweet
so makepkg -s worked fine?

[01:17]

mnathani_

used the one you linked

mercutio

now in your build directory do cower -d meat
and cd meat
and makepkg -s
and install meat
then it's easy to install stuff :)
there's heaps of alternatives

mnathani_

error: no results found for meat

mercutio

but meat works fine for me
it maybe meat-git
yeah it's meat-git :)

mnathani_

what else should exist in my build dir
can I just use /root/build ?

[01:19]

mercutio

nope because you have to build as a normal user
and normal user can't access /root
i dunno what other people do, but i like /src vs /usr/src
and i like having an extra directory for package stuff
some people probably usr /usr/local/src
but /src is much easier to complete to

[01:19]

mnathani_

not using root user is new to me

mercutio

heh yeh

mnathani_

I usually run everything as root

mercutio

not using root is growing on me a little

mnathani_

except maybe weechat

mercutio

yeh i used to root for everything system related
i figure it's more secure having seperate root / normal logins
when you can just sudo su or sudo any command as normal user
it's like your normal user is root
there are a few advantages though
like if you have multiple people doing stuff you can tell who did stuff easier

mnathani_

accounting on a shared system
does arch download everything as source and build
rather than get a binary?

[01:22]

mercutio

aur stuff yeh
but not for normal packages

mnathani_

whats aur again?

mercutio

arch user repository
it's where lots of people submit various packages
quality can vary

BryceBot

That's what she said!!

mercutio

so like infiniband stuff is in there
dropbear is in there it seems
memtest86-efi is in there
ttf-google-fonts-git is in there
none of it is really essential to everyone

[01:25]

mnathani_

how does it compare to say an ubuntu rep

[01:26]

mercutio

it's like universe/multiverse
compared to the standard rep
except it's kind of more like the extra ubuntu repositorys you can add from external

[01:26]

mnathani_

how would I go about installing kde and x

[01:28]

mercutio

kde is in base

[01:28]

mnathani_

the kde instructions said have a xserver working before install
and thats when I couldnt get startx working

[01:29]

mercutio

just pacman -S lightdm
or gdm or whatever you're into

[01:29]

mnathani_

should that bring in the startx command ?

[01:30]

mercutio

nah
it'll go straight to gui
xorg-xinit will give you startx

[01:30]

mnathani_

apt-get install xorg-xinit >> bash: apt-get: command not found
:-)
2 packages: plasma vs plasma-meta

[01:31]

mercutio

hahaa

[01:32]

mnathani_

which one has more stuff

[01:32]

mercutio

meta probably?
i dununo :)

[01:32]

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kevr

Hmm.....

[01:52]

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brycec

pacman -Qo /path/to/file 00:50:02 mnathani_ | You can use pkgfile to know which package own a file.
Personally, mercutio/mnathani_ I'm a fan of yaourt which builds-in sudo, searches ABS and AUR, handles updates, everything! Eg: "yaourt -Syua" update package lists and install updated packages including checking AUR for updated packages.

[07:41]

m0unds

i read that as yaogurt

[07:43]

mike-burns

The character from Spaceballs?

[07:43]

m0unds

yeah, haha

[07:44]

brycec

Also, "makepkg -i" to build + install (with sudo)
mike-burns: The French for yogurt.
I imagine if you're wanting KDE, you'd use kdm, fwiw.

[07:44]

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RandalSchwartz

slow day today :)

[12:03]

brycec

Most days :p

[12:09]

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m0unds

http://blog.pcbsd.org/2015/04/pc-bsd-and-4k-oh-my/ mercutio

[12:53]

.... (idle for 16mn)

mercutio

brycec: i mentioned there were alternatives :)
there are shit loads of them :)
havingg similar syntax to pacman sounds nice though
m0unds: my monitor defaulted to supporting 60 hz, but only through displayport
this motherboard does 4k with onboard video @60 hertz, but only has mini display port. i ordered a display port adapter off ebay, and it's come already. it looks like it's hard to do 60 hortz with onboard video in general.
when i read about that guy going with two 4k monitors taht' is actually a little bit of an issue, because people usually only have one displayport port

[13:09]

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himuraken

They can be chained usually.

[18:05]

BryceBot

That's what she said!!

[18:05]

m0unds

BryceBot: no

[18:08]

BryceBot

Oh, okay... I'm sorry. 'They can be chained usually.'

[18:08]

m0unds

(lol)

[18:08]

brycec

I liked it for a twss :P

himuraken

Am I wrong?

m0unds

no, i was laughing at the bot

himuraken

Lol gotcha

m0unds

looks like w/displayport 1.2 you can only drive a single 4k or 2k display per port

brycec

Provided the intermediate display supports it, and the display adapter. And 4K maxes out DisplayPort v1.2 bandwidth, so no chaining there.
http://www.displayport.org/cables/driving-multiple-displays-from-a-single-displayport-output/

m0unds

yeah

brycec

lol m0unds

m0unds

that's what i was just looking at
i remembered seeing it though, must have just been w/1080p displays

brycec

It's news to me, but I have 0 DP displays so no reason I would know :p

[18:12]

m0unds

my desktop monitor has dp, but i use dvi because i didn't have a dp cable

[18:12]

brycec

Definitely seems very, very cool. Alas, only my desktop has DP (I think... I know my last gfx card did) so it's not a priority.

[18:14]

mnathani_

brycec: so the bot collects all these twss, does it replay them sometime ?

[18:18]

brycec

I'm not understanding the question

[18:18]

mnathani_

do we ever hear back from the bot as in repeat all these phrases that have been recorded
or is it more like a one time <BryceBot> That's what she said!! << comment and thats it

[18:19]

brycec

it doesn't work like that... "twss" trains a bayesian net, akin to spam training. When you "twss" something, it trains the sentence as something "she would say" and that's it. It's not "collected"
(besides by IRC logs, but that's a totally separate thing)

[18:20]

mnathani_

I see
what distribution / BSD most closely resembles archlinux ?

[18:21]

brycec

"distribution" almost exclusively refers to Linux, so... the closest Linux to Archlinux would have to be Archlinux.
(though VoidLinux might be a close second)
For BSD's, I'd say FreeBSD
(but take that with a grain of salt - I've only ever used Open, Net, and FreeBSD)

[18:25]

mnathani_

is Arch a top level linux, or does it have an upstream?

[18:27]

mkb

none of them
they are all much more conservative than archlinux

[18:27]

brycec

mnathani_: Top

[18:30]

mkb

mkb remembers when he used to use arch and had all this free time for messing with my computer

[18:35]

brycec

I still use Arch and it doesn't require all sorts of free time. Unlike Gentoo... (but that was a long time ago)

[18:36]

twobithacker

I should play with Dragonfly more

[18:40]

......... (idle for 40mn)

grody

is anyone experience serious lag?

[19:20]

RandalSchwartz

I am

[19:20]

grody

i cant use my vps for ♥ nor money
nvm.. stupid sendmail decided to go on a rampage
i killed that ages ago in place of postfix and its rearing it's butt ugly face again

[19:20]

.... (idle for 15mn)

if i had £1 for everytime i forgot to add a new mail alias for root to point to a valid mta, i would be having enough money to buy everyone a round of beer
kern.ipc.maxpipekva exceeded; see tuning(7) is such a lovely message when sendmail/mailwrapper gets in a knot about having nowhere to send anything then just queues

[19:40]

brycec

lol grody

[19:44]

mercutio

i'd say netbsd is more like arch than freebsd

brycec

mercutio: What about Dfly or PCBSD? Have you tried those, do they relate at all?

mercutio

brycec: i awnt to try dragonfly but i haven't

brycec

(siteXX.tgz ftw - one of my install.site/upgrade.site's tasks is to ensure there's a sane alias)

mercutio

but considering they forked freebsd 4, where freebsd started to destabilise, i think it's on the conserwative side

grody

grody misses his 4.11 box

mercutio

freebsd 2 and 4 were pretty stable

grody

had that from bleeding edge til about a year ago, when the actual hardware systematically died.. was my best file server ever

mercutio

was there a freebsd 3?
ahh there was 3 but it was shortlived

[19:47]

grody

PCBSD is basically FreeBSD, but all GUId up for you

[19:48]

mercutio

sounds annoying :)

[19:48]

grody

archlinux is a beast on it's own and is a linux i enjoy next to gentoo.. and if i were to say FreeBSD was like any linux, i would say it was an easy to use gentoo

mercutio

freebsd kind of annoys me

grody

and i never thought i would read myself typing that

mercutio

freebsd feels more like redhat

grody

"an easy to use gentoo"
gawd no, redhat is S^&!
wouldn't excrete on it even if it's immolation spelt $500 to put me out

mercutio

freebsd is more unstable than netbsd or openbsd

[19:50]

grody

freebsd has lost it's way in the last few years, that is fgor sure
i blame apple

[19:50]

mercutio

netbsd is lean and mean like arch :)
did you ever use slackware grody ?

[19:50]

grody

never actually used netbsd for anything more than pottering on
mercutio, for a while.. until i found gentoo

mercutio

ahh ok

grody

then my hair started thinning...

mercutio

i tried using gentoo
i didn't like it

grody

trinux was something i used to use a lot, a floppy based slackware
yea gentoo can be infuriating

[19:52]

mercutio

it was a very long time ago actually

[19:52]

grody

only using it again atm as im trying to build "the perfect linux" for my tablet, since there is absolutely no or little "official" support, so im stealing drivers and what not from androids that are suspected to work the wifi and touchscreen (only two things holding me back)
but it's taken bloody ages to get things even barely right

[19:53]

mercutio

heh
sounds like a huge time sink

[19:53]

grody

it is :(
but windows 8.1 is the only other option (even android x86 has "issues"_
)

[19:53]

mercutio

windows 10?
you know you want to :)
it's just a tablet

[19:54]

grody

i have the TP on my laptop.. not bad, but i wouldn't put it down as tablet friendly
haha

[19:54]

mercutio

i have tp on my desktop

[19:55]

grody

for a low ended thing, it's pretty damned fast
ahh crap and now my slave laptop is useless again... i have too much crap going on on this thing

[19:55]

mercutio

i wonder if any project levering arch is going to make significant headway
like ubuntu is to debian

[19:56]

grody

compiling AOSP for my Sony phone, compiling stuff in Gentoo and now it's gone into meltdown as SWMBO wants to transcode a blueray for the Roku
i only came online to make sure the new box i just put on my network isnt revealing anything to the innerwebs

[19:56]

mercutio

brycec: what do you think of arch linux for servers?

[19:59]

grody

mercutio, i think Mint did a better working of debian, although they say it's ubuntu derived.. i never got that fully
use Mint quite a lot in fact :/
have arch on the pogoplug
thats currently a backup MTA and web server/.. it /seems/ to have held for some months now

[19:59]

mercutio

postfix broke recently for me :/
but i haven't had many issues
and it was quite easy to fix

[20:00]

grody

yea, postfix did something weird for me too after an upgrade
some execs moved location and didn't get fixed in a config

mercutio

ahh
yes that's the issue i had too ;)

grody

symlinked the fuckers

mercutio

i just fixed the config file

grody

i didnt have time to do that.. but since im online now, i may as well

[20:02]

mercutio

daemon_directory = /usr/lib/postfix/bin
i think that was it
i think it was without the /bin before

[20:02]

grody

yea
rehash
bleah, wrong terminal

[20:02]

mercutio

grody: zstyle ':completion:*' rehash true

[20:03]

grody

grody uses csh

mercutio

ahh

grody

dont know why, always have since day 1 of freebsd and stuck since

mercutio

typing rehash sucks :)

grody

dont usually install new stuff that often

mercutio

yeah but the amount of times you want to complete on something you've just installed is probably high

[20:05]

grody

Fetching mtr-nox11-0.86.txz: 100% 42 KiB 43.5kB/s 00:01
pkg: cached package mtr-nox11-0.86: size mismatch, fetching from remote
thats annoying
i can sense things are only to get worse if i dig deeper so im going to crack open a brew and watch TV instead :D

[20:06]

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brycec

grody: Mint was originally forked from Debian, but later on they re-based off Ubuntu.
mercutio: As a "professional practice" I think rolling releases in production are a Bad Idea(tm).
Though even in "production" if updates are carefully checked and tested before being deployed, it's fine.

[20:41]

mercutio

yeah there are some caveats

[20:43]

brycec

I've run it personally. But when it boils down to it, I need a server that doesn't have an 80% chance of breaking when I update, so I stick with "released" things like Debian and OpenBSD :D

[20:45]

mercutio

i don't think that it's rolling release is necessarily the biggest issue
it's more that it's hard to know what will break where

[20:45]

grody

i never had any issues with FreeBSD until 9/10
4 to 5, 5 to 6, 6 to 8 all fine.. 9 and 10.. wow

[20:54]

brycec

9+ eh? That's about when they added ZFS support. Coincidence? :P

RandalSchwartz

and MIMD

grody

but upgrades where all manual and only really security fixes using former portaudit and portupgrade (now seems to all be in pkg)

RandalSchwartz

and a bunch of other things
I'm renting a cheap box at digitalocean running not-zfs-on-root (since they don't support it) build my 8.x, 9.x, and 10.x packages.
by cheap, I'm saying $5/month
and it has 20 GB SSD.
that'll make my migrations easier
I'm tempted to make a ZFS fs by mounting it as a file.
so I'd just have an outer shim to hold the OS, and everything else would be ZFS on a legacy fs.
I've asked them for ZFS on root and it's not on their roadmap

m0unds

netbsd is pretty conservative. stuff doesn't change on their release branch unless they work in security fixes
their releng guys do a pretty good job (which is why 7 was delayed repeatedly)

[21:01]

RandalSchwartz

the freebsd fixit shell is only on the dvd1 release, right?

[21:02]

mjp__

you'll get a shell on the cd image

[21:03]

RandalSchwartz

not dis1
disc1
fixit shell not there

[21:03]

mercutio

m0unds: they release often though compared to freebsd
and debian

m0unds

what?

mercutio

actually freebsd used to release rpetty often

m0unds

freebsd rolled 10.0 last year, 10.1 this year
netbsd rolled 6.1 tree last year, iirc
and they've done 3 minor point releases since (which were all security fixes iirc)

mercutio

ahh maybe i'm just nto following it as much
9 to 10 took ages

[21:07]

brycec

9 to 10 was only about a year

[21:07]

mercutio

nah it was way more than a year

[21:07]

m0unds

NetBSD 6.1 was released in May 2013
they're still on that tree
so no, they're not fast :)

mercutio

it's 6.1.5 now though

brycec

And prior to that was 2009

m0unds

all the minor point releases were security fixes
i don't think they did much in the way of feature roll-ups

mercutio

ahh

brycec

(3.5 years between releases :p)

mercutio

isn't freebsd 9.2 to 9.3 bug fixes too?
freebsd 9 was 2012
freebsd 10 2014
ok it's not that long between releases
seems to be a couple of years
so freebsd 11 next year?