#arpnetworks 2015-03-26,Thu

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Who	What	When
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mnathani__	is it just me or is freenode doing a bunch of netsplits / rejoins recently	[13:33]
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mercutio	it does seem to be the case but it's more that frreenode was surprisingly reliable for a while	[14:16]
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Guest42160	up_the_irons: I'm looking to learn some BGP stuff before tuesday. I was wondering if theres anything I can do with this /48 that I have that I could set up with quagga? is it obvious I donno what I'm talking about ? Not the first time, trying to learn I guess I'd need to register an AS number or something	[18:46]
mercutio	Guest42160: what are you tryin gto learn?	[18:49]
Guest42160	how to setup / admin bgp	[18:50]
mercutio	a) i wouldn't really recommend quagga b) most bgp setups are really simple, or really complicated; there's not a lot of inbetween	[18:50]
Guest42160	yeah I dont have any cisco hardware	[18:51]
mercutio	c) bgp is usually used for people using multiple upstream providers for incresed reliability or performance. you don't need to use cisco, but as someone who's used multiple open soruce routing platforms i'd recommend openbgpd or bird over quagga.	[18:51]
Guest42160	ah ok hmm well thats a start :)	[18:52]
mercutio	i used quagga a long time ago before bird or openbgpd existed.	[18:52]
Guest42160	net-misc/bird	[18:52]
mercutio	and it was better than zebra. but zebra was terrible. and quagga was still terrible. and the last i looked it's still not really that wonderful. you should be able to get a looking glass connection if you want to get a view of the internet.	[18:52]
Guest42160	I set it up the other night but I have nothing to really configure with it but I checked out the zebra shell and stuff	[18:53]
mercutio	but that doesn't necessarily help you learn.	[18:53]
Guest42160	no indeed not	[18:53]
mkb	stay far away from quagga and zebra	[18:53]
mercutio	you can use private asn's to make your little own mini network.	[18:53]
Guest42160	ah cool	[18:54]
mercutio	mkb: well i didn't want to cause offense... :) it's terrible when someone just finds something new and interesting to play with and someone comes and says it's terrible! it tends to make people stop listening :)	[18:54]
mkb	well true	[18:54]
Guest42160	yeah I mean I just figure Ive got this whole /48 I figure I ought to be able to do something kinda neat with BGP and that but I'm just guessing	[18:54]
mercutio	a /48 isn't that much space. you can't advertise any smalelr	[18:55]
mkb	it's probably easist to play with virtualbox	[18:55]
mercutio	you kind of need at least a /48 to do anycas.t	[18:55]
Guest42160	its an incomprehensible # of addresses lol	[18:55]
mercutio	adn you need multiple locations to do much with bgp really	[18:55]
mkb	mercutio, you can on a private network which is what he has anyway	[18:55]
mercutio	mkb: well true, but hten anycast doesn't help :)	[18:55]
Guest42160	ah yeah now I remember I wonder if I could use an EC2 instance along with my arpnetworks vps and setup anycast with it	[18:56]
mkb	last time I played with a private BGP network with some friends one guy had zebra, and that's where my hatrid of it and linux routing came from Guest, not on a public IP	[18:56]
mercutio	Guest42160: what's this "by tuesday" you talk of?	[18:57]
Guest42160	I just want to have some experience to speak of by tuesday because I'm interviewing for a job	[18:57]
mercutio	my hatred came from quagga dying and keeping routes in the table.	[18:57]
Guest42160	I dont think its a huge priority for them but I want to cover all of the bases	[18:58]
mercutio	guest: it depends on the work place, but lots of work places don't really get excited by people playing with things at home.	[18:58]
mkb	mercutio, did you know Linux refuses packets that come addressed to you with a source from some link that the routing table wouldn't send packets to?	[18:58]
Guest42160	because I'm tired of screwing around and I want to get back to work. It's amazon so I figure i'd better not squander any opportunity to beef up	[18:58]
mercutio	and so if you can't connect it to a solution you provided for somebody it can seem like you like to waste time doing "non productive" things. i look at things as getting experience/exposure in different areas helps divergent thinking.	[18:59]
Guest42160	mercutio: yeah I am familiar with that attitude and I'm happy to tell anybody who doesn't regard experience as experience to go sodomize themself fuckin pisses me off	[18:59]
mercutio	but employers aren't necessarily like that :) guest: careful about your language when interviewing too.	[18:59]
mkb	I'm sure Amazon will like his use of EC2 at least	[19:00]
mercutio	cool calm and collected.	[19:00]
Guest42160	I know, I just had to vent there for a second	[19:00]
mercutio	all good :) what kind of job at amazon is it? mkb: yes i did know that actually mkb: I HATE IT mkb: it's rp_filter that does it. mkb: AND AT THE SAME TIME IT'LL ARP FOR OTHER INTERFACES BY DEFAULT	[19:00]
mkb	it took me like a week to find	[19:01]
Guest42160	that whole gentrifier pseudo professional attitude about experience doesn't count unless its for an org is b.s what's an org	[19:01]
mercutio	huh guest?	[19:01]
mkb	they weren't ethernet fortunately so I didn't know that	[19:01]
***	Guest42160 is now known as erratic_	[19:02]
mercutio	erratic_: i'm talking about solutions, not about doing things for big businesss or something. fwiw i have bgp at home :)	[19:02]
erratic_	I did some research into anycast several years ago for a HA project I was working on but I didn't have the budget for it	[19:03]
mercutio	but if i was applying for a job i wouldn't say that	[19:03]
mkb	that actually sounds good, and you'll presumably be able to talk intelligently about anycast	[19:04]
mercutio	you can say why you chose not to etc. also sometimes people like to hear about mistakes people have made some people try and be perfect and act as if they never make mistakes	[19:04]
mkb	I don't know if this is a networking position where you'd be expected to or just something else and you're trying to show general knowledge	[19:05]
mercutio	but someone who believes they make no mistakes will deal worse with mistakes they do make	[19:05]
erratic_	mkb: thats kinda the point, I'm not a total noob I know more about this than I let on but its hard to express a good starting point so I just wanted to start from the beginning when I said "what can I do with quagga and my /48"	[19:05]
mkb	but very few "programmers" have an accurate idea of how networks work	[19:05]
mercutio	mkb: yeah that always confused me. but then i have no idea how opengl works	[19:05]
mkb	I remember in school when they tried to teach a class on writing a raytracer. It was an utter failure because nobody had the math involved	[19:07]
mercutio	mkb: actually lots of "networks" people don't seem to know how networks work too	[19:07]
mkb	networks have more general applicability than opengl anyway	[19:07]
mercutio	i did graphics design in high school for like a year?	[19:07]
erratic_	nice	[19:07]
mercutio	that's kind of like ray tracing right this wasn't using computers :/ but had stuff about perspective and shit	[19:07]
erratic_	open in Firefox http://jsfiddle.net/erratic/n4be8273/11/ its a tilemap engine that I made	[19:08]
mkb	erratic_, as far as playing around goes I'd play with openbsd and it's routing domains in virtualbox. it's easier to have all the network access rather than trying to debug some issue between ARP and EC2	[19:08]
erratic_	part of it I followed a tutorial for but the rest (path generation / pathfinding) I had to figure out	[19:08]
mercutio	why do you comment //down in a function called MoveDown? sorry :)	[19:09]
mkb	mercutio, yeah I think the lack of art training confused people too erratic_, nice	[19:09]
erratic_	mkb: thank you also fyi playing around is subjective http://paigeadelethompson.blogspot.com/2015/02/my-2014-network.html	[19:09]
mercutio	i'm upgradi~ng my home network to 32gigabit once my friend sends me my cards :)	[19:10]
erratic_	though most of that is dead now, my server back in greece has been down for months since the house lost power and my bf can't be bothered to mess with it	[19:10]
mkb	I have a BGP network operated via gif tunnels over DSL lines :) I know what "playing around" is	[19:10]
erratic_	thats awesome :)	[19:11]
mercutio	erratic_: i reckon you'd be better in a small business err smaller doing more general stuff	[19:11]
erratic_	I don't know I'll be happy whereever I am as long as its interesting and pays me	[19:11]
mercutio	you seem like you're in the area where you'll be most likely comfortable dealing with "complexity" rathe than doing the same things again and again generlaly spekaing larger businesses tend to specialise more so it's more about doing similar tasks quickly and efficiently whereas there's more novelty in smaller businesses. (which some people find more stressful)	[19:11]
erratic_	you know i have a lot of fun working on my own projects so I think if I can't get enough enjoyment out of work there is always that	[19:12]
mercutio	heh there is always that	[19:12]
erratic_	but I think at this point I just need something thats consistent	[19:12]
mercutio	ok	[19:13]
erratic_	and I need to stay at a job for awhile	[19:13]
mkb	I'm in a smaller business and programming. I have enough trouble fixing up how other people deal with complexity.	[19:13]
erratic_	so I'm not really arguing with you but its like you said I have a hard time finding people who will take me seriously so I can't be too picky	[19:13]
mercutio	mkb: have you tried fq_codel?	[19:13]
mkb	i.e. they don't and hope it doesn't matter. It usually does.	[19:13]
mercutio	i used to do programming i tried to get back into it again last night	[19:13]
erratic_	actually shouldn't even say take me seriously, most people seem to regard me as not even worth talking to so	[19:14]
mercutio	then i was googling and i found some site called freelancer.com	[19:14]
mkb	nope	[19:14]
erratic_	programming is fun	[19:14]
mercutio	i found some job making someone's site run quicker	[19:14]
erratic_	although I hate doing it for other people	[19:14]
mkb	I use pf's queuing facility	[19:14]
mercutio	erratic_: yeh that's what i'm like.	[19:14]
erratic_	programmer jobs are aggravating	[19:15]
mercutio	well i don't necesarily mind for other poeple	[19:15]
erratic_	I've worked in several	[19:15]
mercutio	as long as it's what i want to do	[19:15]
mkb	I could enjoy it if I didn't have to deal with other people's code	[19:15]
mercutio	but invariably it's not. mkb: this site had db issues :/	[19:15]
mkb	and if I got to rewrite practically every component I come across	[19:15]
mercutio	cough	[19:15]
mkb	sql injection?	[19:15]
mercutio	nah single table no indexes.	[19:15]
erratic_	the last job I had was programming and it sucked, was .NET C# / VB, porting horrible broken VB code, boring ecommerce code	[19:15]
mercutio	huge table scan.s and sort by rand() err order by i got it going way way way quicker.	[19:16]
mkb	my current job is converting some code from BDB -> LMDB. Every method I touch gets it's line count at least halved	[19:16]
mercutio	but it still could be faster.	[19:16]
erratic_	lol nice	[19:16]
mkb	erratic_, that's annoying	[19:16]
mercutio	and that's why i odn't like programming for other people	[19:16]
mkb	its* why can I never do that right	[19:17]
mercutio	like i reckon web pages should load in 50 microseconds. or use 50 microseconds of cpu time	[19:17]
mkb	not the way they use JavaScript now	[19:17]
mercutio	yeah jaevascript alone kills it but there are heaps of latency interactions etc too.	[19:17]
erratic_	mkb: it was awful, I'll never do it again I only took that job because I had to and I was desperate then things changed and I found myself in a position where I didn't have to worry about work for awhile	[19:18]
mercutio	you realyl want the whole web site to be within 20 msec of you it's an area i'm kind of interested in actually	[19:18]
erratic_	and that was good I needed it after what I'd been through plus hating that job	[19:18]
mercutio	like moving application logic to the edge and having systems that don't rely on a central system	[19:18]
mkb	oh practically nobody can design software they start writing code and hope it comes out okay	[19:18]
erratic_	heheh yeah people have different styles and some people can do better with others and cant do with all any other way but one	[19:21]
mkb	mercutio, so how do you handle db consistency?	[19:22]
erratic_	try to remember that	[19:22]
mkb	erratic_, it's not just that. you know fizzbuzz right? most "programmers" can't solve basic problems	[19:22]
erratic_	it helps the ones who are willing to try and interested in learning, also having patience	[19:23]
mercutio	mkb: well that's one of the complex parts. but usually you don't need to. you can always have reads so they don't touch and writes so they do but say you have a cart shared between systems, and you add something to your cart. and you'r still going to the close system, if it can't talk to the remote system it shouldn't matter at that stage. you can say there should always be a constant stock availbility. but ime stock counts are often wrong anyway	[19:23]
mkb	the cart would be handled client side if you're willing to give up non-JavaScript users (not that you should; there are a few of us)	[19:25]
mercutio	like you can purchase something on amazon onyl to find out there's no stock.	[19:25]
mkb	honestly stock counts are usually handled when they go to the storeroom	[19:25]
mercutio	so if you're a bit late with finding there's no stock available it doesn't really change things. mkb: stock tracking is one of those problems that "seems simple"	[19:25]
erratic_	the thing that kills me that I struggle with is in C# when people make a class for everything. This is a common problem with Java too. You can often times elegantly make a class for a lot of things but sometimes its just easier and less chaotic to have redundant properties on classes instead of shared nested objects because you end up with so many files that its hard to find your way around the source tree.	[19:25]
mercutio	and you can do everything perfectly from a db/systems pov. and then find there's issue with stock being damaged/lost/misplaced etc. stolen.	[19:25]
mkb	then someone leaves some a little off the shelf and the cart picks it up and deposits it 10 feet away later someone finds it and shelves it there instead	[19:26]
mercutio	mkb: but then the box is empty :) because some other one was damged, and someone stuck the one from that box with the other one because they didn't want to do a new order. yeah there are a lot of complexitys. and a lot of them can get out of scope.	[19:26]
mkb	my parents run a pawn shop without computers. I've seen storeroom problems :)	[19:27]
mercutio	erratic_: what bugs me is when people comment obvious things :)	[19:27]
erratic_	people go way too crazy though i think, an example is you have a class called SoftwareBusiness, extends Business, has a nested property of type OrganizationalContact, extends abastract Contact, class Business has a property called Contact, class OrganizationalContact is a typeof Contact ...	[19:28]
mercutio	becuase someone taught them to comment regularly. i have old school type coding though i use iterators called i. so for (i = 0; i < ..	[19:28]
mkb	though thinking about how this db would be kept on paper records gives you some clarity I've found	[19:28]
mercutio	doesn't seem off to me	[19:28]
mkb	mercutio, people don't do that now?	[19:28]
erratic_	so do I unless I'm using an IDE like visual studio or monodevelop that completes variable names, then i use "index"	[19:28]
mercutio	whereas the new style is to make up some fancy three word name for it mkb: it's pretty uncommon now well if you look at java etc code rather than c code.	[19:28]
mkb	oh god I hate java	[19:29]
mercutio	the way i see it is that code blocks should fit on the screen. if the code block is too large to fit on screen then it's hard to comprehend	[19:29]
mkb	you have to close over final variables because any other way could be "confusing" then you have mutable objects which for some reason aren't "confusing"	[19:29]
mercutio	but i'm not that opposed to three page functions if they don't have loops that cover multiple pages.	[19:30]
mkb	it's not just line count	[19:30]
mercutio	and having lots of single line procdeures..	[19:30]
erratic_	mkb: Ive gotten so used to C# https://github.com/paigeadele/nMVC/blob/master/nMVC/Core%20Classes/HTTP/RouterManager.cs#L69	[19:30]
mkb	this BDB -> LMDB thing I mentioned. I've found a million instances like this: int i = 0; i = findsomevaluefunction(...);	[19:30]
erratic_	I can practically write stuff like that in my sleep	[19:31]
mkb	but when I tread the first statement I have to think about why it's zet to zero	[19:31]
mercutio	haha i'm so behind on coding i'm rewriting transparent tcp proxy. and i find the socket stuff kind of icky.	[19:31]
erratic_	mercutio: I have something you will like one sec	[19:31]
mkb	C sharp has lambda now? mercutio, C?	[19:31]
mercutio	mkb: yeh.	[19:32]
erratic_	mercutio: I just wrote this today http://paigeadelethompson.blogspot.com/2015/03/doing-more-with-http-proxies.html Ive been meaning to for months now	[19:32]
mercutio	i've been trying to figure out how to captuure syn ack so like you make a tcp connection out from your computer, over the internet and a box in the middle does a tcp hijack when it gets the synack back	[19:32]
erratic_	sounds like masscan kinda	[19:33]
mercutio	preferably it captures the syn, and sends the syn itself	[19:33]
mkb	talking about complexity: there's so much involved with syscalls semantics and most people don't read manpages	[19:33]
mercutio	well basically i want connection refused, etc all to seem normal so that tcp connection only suceeds if it gets through to the other end	[19:33]
mkb	yeah you need raw sockets for that	[19:33]
mercutio	then the tcp proxy masquerades as youir normal ip	[19:33]
mkb	if they even present everything?	[19:33]
mercutio	there'll be a way i'm just hoping i don't have to use tun/tap or something :/	[19:34]
mkb	that's a way, but it's probably a slow way	[19:34]
mercutio	well this is meant to be to speed up ~32 megabit connections there's some other voodoo i want to add into it too :)	[19:34]
mkb	queueing?	[19:35]
mercutio	i'm already using fq_codel	[19:35]
erratic_	hmm	[19:35]
mercutio	the problem is if you download at 4mb/sec and you're downloading at 4mb/sec atm and you have new data come in, adn that slows down the previous connection, and makes room for the new connection then everything is switch towards "not overloading connections" and the bw management etc means it takes longer to get back up to speed so when that first 4mb/sec connection finishes the new connection won't immediately go to 4mb/sec	[19:35]
erratic_	QoS stuff is something I definitely need to get my hands dirty with	[19:36]
BryceBot	That's what she said!!	[19:36]
mercutio	so i want to have 2 megabytes of buffer or such :)	[19:37]
erratic_	lol	[19:37]
mercutio	erratic_: fq_codel is nice and automagical.	[19:37]
mkb	mkb forgets how to tell BryceBot he did a good job	[19:37]
erratic_	yeah I was just reading about it :)	[19:37]
mercutio	it's long haul where it can still not be ideal. like if you're 300 msec away	[19:37]
brycec	mkb: "BryceBot: yes" or just "twss"	[19:37]
mercutio	just having a massively long queue with http/https separate from normal traffic helped meant ssh wouldn't bounce around, and you don't really notice "lag" with http/https add 50 msec to ssh and you'll notice it more than 50ms to http/https	[19:38]
erratic_	yeah when I was in greece I was actually using google voice over my vpn	[19:39]
mkb	I use ssh over AT&T u-verse sometimes. It's horrible	[19:39]
erratic_	I didn't really have any complaints	[19:39]
mercutio	i have graphs for my connection	[19:40]
mkb	as far as I can tell AT&T just cuts your connection off for five seconds once a minute	[19:40]
mercutio	fq_codel is amazing :)	[19:40]
BryceBot	That's what she said!!	[19:40]
erratic_	I gotta get off here for a bit guys, I'll catch yall later this evening if you're around	[19:40]
mercutio	well for latency, throughput coujdl still go up :) hmm i have 0.1 msec jitter on my vdsl	[19:40]
erratic_	mercutio: I'm kinda interested in your proxy will ask later	[19:41]
mkb	mercutio, does it eventually get up to 32 mbit?	[19:41]
mercutio	mkb: does what?	[19:41]
mkb	the throughput on this connection? I don't understand what would keep it down	[19:41]
mercutio	mkb: oh my connection can easily do full bwe bw what i'm talking about is that when you've got some usage on your connectoin, and are transferring files remotely. and you stop your usage, tcp/ip takes ages to recover. and faster connections usualyl transfer faster, and can respond a little quicker and buffer a little in order to "keep the pipe always full" i mean it's kind of academic http://pastebin.com/xnnQQfiR it's not like it gets terrible speeds, buut it could be better :)	[19:42]
mkb	hmm	[19:44]
mercutio	and if it can be better and transparent... that to me is awesome :) also my connection is more like 34megabit but yaeh there is a long and complicated plan surrounding this idea where if you have bgp having data coming in in multiple locations and can terminate closer to that point you can get speed up even further	[19:46]
mkb	to which point?	[19:49]
mercutio	more data is sent when you ack, so if you ack closer to the destination	[19:49]
mkb	ah	[19:49]
mercutio	your speed goes up quicker, and you respond quicker to packet loss etc. and then you just have to relay back to the source so if you even then relay to a faster system that relays it to the bottleneck then you have a higher chance of a good connection damn i'm letting ouut all of my secrests :) so then if you have multiple ways to relay traffic, then you can have traffic take different paths depending on network health	[19:49]
mkb	that's usually done with MPLS I thought	[19:50]
mercutio	everything kind of ties together. yes but it's also pretty dumb normally	[19:51]
mkb	but something has to detect that state and yeah	[19:51]
mercutio	so if you have two ways to send data you can send traffic down both paths so if you're using ssh or something, the data volume isn't very high, but not receiving data really sucks but if one path has 25 msec higher ping than the other and you send down both and the quicker one drops the packet the second one will have the data and you'll just get it 25 msec later. that kind of thing is down on fibre rings sometimes. like they'll send in both directions around a ring and one direction is quicker than the other.. but it means you don't even have to check if it's up or anything	[19:51]
mkb	I haven't thought about routing based on port number	[19:53]
mercutio	you just default to sending both ways.	[19:53]
mkb	that's a good idea though	[19:53]
mercutio	yeh basically there are expensive ways to do things and to do things better but if you want to be cheap, and have a working solution, the easiest thing to do is to send down "two paths" all data. and obviously if you're sending bulk data that needs to be sequential you probably won't do that but say you've got 8 paths you can send down 8 paths with raid :) sequential has shit loads of issuesu though	[19:53]
mkb	I was thinking more about you have one link with low latency and low bandwidth and one link high latency and handwidth: send SSH/RTP through low latency and everything else through high	[19:55]
mercutio	like different speed connections etc. yeah it tends to be low latency / high bandwidth / high cost vs high latency low bandwidth low cost now days.	[19:55]
mkb	why is sequential an issue? TCP handles it?	[19:56]
mercutio	terribly that's why people are ultra careful wtih load balancing atm it really doesn't handle out of order etc well if you take away the sequential requirement and send different parts of the file like bittorrent then you can speed up builk transfers and so if you can do something like scp that takes away the sequential requirement..	[19:56]
mkb	globus http://toolkit.globus.org/toolkit/docs/4.2/4.2.1/data/gridftp/user/ We've got a 100Gbit link at work I'm supposed to test that with	[19:57]
mercutio	yeah i've looked at that i've played with udt i was going to use udt. udt is interestnig. it has high startup cost. and a few other annoying things i decided to just do my own in the end. but yeh with scp you want low priority / medium priority / high priority you wnat low priority for huge backups over slow links that you don't want to get in the way you want high priority if you're doing something like pushing dns updates and medium priority for tarsnfering medium files around.	[19:59]
mkb	dns updates are small enough that it doesn't matter?	[20:00]
mercutio	but yeah i want to do a few complicated things with routing through intermediate boxes.	[20:00]
mkb	but I understand what you mean	[20:00]
mercutio	and having static authentication stuff. what happens if you want to push dns updates to a dns server that is having 50% packet loss like to increase the ttl because people are hammering the site and it's getting congested (say)	[20:00]
mkb	only on the updates? it would lose dns requests too	[20:01]
mercutio	yeah but raising ttl can still reduce impact if it's not ddos	[20:01]
mkb	yeah	[20:02]
mercutio	i know it's kind of a weak example in some ways but i dunno about you, but when i make a dns change i want "instant" feedback that it's propogated. and so if it can do the update 200 msec quicker that matters to me.	[20:02]
mkb	so you're exploiting the fact that there's extra bandwidth between th elink and the server (link isn't as big as that ethernet cable I mean)	[20:02]
mercutio	so yeah the other thing i want to look at is forward error correction too. well some paths may have issues and others not like you have comcast and level3 oops cogent and level3 and cogent is experiencing isuses and level3 isn't and your normal link goes over cogent but you haev another host that can connect over level3	[20:02]
mkb	200 msec? that's going to dwarved by the time it takes to notice and think about the connection	[20:03]
mercutio	and you don't get packet loss to that other host, so you bounce via that other host. maybe. this is why i don't like coding for other people :)	[20:03]
mkb	heh	[20:04]
mercutio	i don't want to have to justify myself, i just want things to work "better" :) ok let's shift back to ssh	[20:04]
mkb	but I think 200 msec is optimistic if you've got 50% packet loss	[20:04]
mercutio	so your ssh connection goes over cogent and cogent has loss and level3 doesn't so it automatically routes via the level3 host.	[20:04]
mkb	yeah I understood that part	[20:05]
mercutio	well yeah it depends on your rtt to the remote host etc too. the thing is i want this stuff to happen semi-automagically. so you might be able to view some status web page but it's handling all this routing for you but the cool thing is that tcp/ip handles things a lot better when your'e close to the destination so evn if you're going back to normal tcp/ip closer to the destination, and you just have automagic stuff between hosts that you control, you can still make a world of difference. so yaeh this is an idea from years ago.	[20:05]
mkb	hmm	[20:06]
mercutio	and i managed to get a proof of concept going with squid and web pages. where squid would direct close to a destination web site. and then send traffic back so you had a squid proxy, that then connected to another squid proxy and it'd do a geo ip lookup in order to decide where to route it to. but then you find some things like google, well all of google says it's in mountain view, ca. so doing it with bgp woudl be better.	[20:06]
mkb	I imagine people like akamai and cloudflare have big databases they make of "actual" network locations	[20:08]
mercutio	but then how do you get lots of bgp entry points :)	[20:08]
mkb	ping time is more relevant than geo location anyway	[20:08]
mercutio	true lots of things arent' pingable though and so you have to look at tcp latency but yeah there are some smarts that can be done. akamai has terrible intelligence same with cloudflare. cloudflare is just anycast. akamai holds bgp views of it's path to the source. i got my system working well for web browsing i got a list of sites to test. i'd look through the logs and find which sites loaded slowly.	[20:08]
mkb	maybe they should	[20:09]
mercutio	or which parts of what sites. i found a few intersting things out.	[20:09]
mkb	so there's a tunnel between squids?	[20:10]
mercutio	akamai often contributed to far higher page load times. basically akamai's miss cahce performance was terrible, it was way worse than going direct. so it may take 50 msec sometimse, and 2000 msec other times. there wasn'te ven a tunnel just a ip acl and squid using as parent proxy so yaeh akamai was one of the biggest annoyances. as you didn't know where to send stuff	[20:10]
mkb	okay the squid ips were special and your network knew to send over different links?	[20:11]
mercutio	you can kind of guess where the origin site might be and shift it closer to the origin. oh it wasn't doing any intelligence i just chose hosts that i had good connections to and dropped htem if the network sucked.	[20:11]
mkb	right	[20:11]
mercutio	but it got annoying because it couldn't get rid of a host if it was misperforming	[20:11]
mkb	I don't understand why this improved things	[20:12]
mercutio	and heaps of "cheap vps's" had terrible networks. arp's a lot better than most :) ok there are a few reasons it improves things	[20:12]
mkb	how is going to the squid on the other side improving things	[20:12]
mercutio	partially it was because i did this yeras ago	[20:12]
mkb	you're picking different routes than the network would have?	[20:12]
mercutio	and i was doing the initial window size of 10 packets when linux didn't have it by default yet.	[20:12]
mkb	cheap vpses are terrible	[20:13]
mercutio	so it'd send 14.6k of data initially partially it was because quite a few sites use nt etc err "windows server" and have terrible network stacks. partially it was because especially in the uk some providers upstreams were way faster than others to back here. the uk is kind of special like that. like it used to be that ovh's netowrk really sucked to here. and quite a few people hosted stuff on ovh err and hetzner.de i think ovh has got a lot better to here acutally i think they improved their US routing when they did their candada expansion err and the other thing i was doing was i was setting a bandwidth limit and overshooting bandwidth can lead to loss	[20:13]
mkb	yeah	[20:16]
mercutio	and on short amounts of data transfer things arent' recovered from quickly so i used htb and capped it at my adsl sync speed :) or a little higher i think it was capped at like 20 megabit when i had 21 megabit sync ads but adsl has high overhead etc. anyway with all of this work i got average page load time down from around 1400 msec to around 1200 msec.	[20:16]
mkb	nice	[20:17]
mercutio	but if you just look at an average like that you can be like you were before, and say 200 msec doesn't matter. but i benchmarked on other isp's etc too. and one isp was 1600 msec, the other one was 1800 msec. but even then, that's just averagesx. what really was interesting, was looking at the benchmark run and getting other people to run the benchmark. like someone tried running it without adblock. adn they were at like 2600 msec.	[20:17]
mkb	why squid over using bgp or some other routing protocol to change routing?	[20:18]
mercutio	and i ran it on another isp that i used to find was kind of weird with web performance and it'd just hang part way through the test. who was i going to get a bgp feed through?	[20:18]
mkb	ooh I can imagine ads (aside from being big images and full of javascript if not flash) going through a worse route	[20:19]
mercutio	seriously, i treid to get bgp first.	[20:19]
mkb	oh that's a problem mercutio, AT&T's stuff is like that. I think their router runs some custom TCP stack that gets confused if there's too much going on and drops connections	[20:19]
mercutio	hmm, i've had bgp with arp since 2012. but yeah this was pre 2012 and yeah i asked about getting full table with them back then :) back then you couldn't. so yeah, anyway i seem to have blabbered on for ages. but akamai was one of the slow parts	[20:20]
BryceBot	That's what she said!!	[20:22]
mercutio	the other was adblock made a huge diff	[20:22]
mkb	no it's interesting	[20:22]
mercutio	but what i found really interesting, is one of the slowest sites on my test was in the same city as me.	[20:22]
mkb	I've just used a hosts file for ages and that seems to improve things	[20:22]
mercutio	and one of the fastest sites wasn't that close to me. and a lot of web site performance had to do the origin web site. and processing delays on forums etc could easily be over 200 msec. this was pre everyone including bloody facebook links you know if facebook goes down now that a lot of random web sites will get slow? the other thing is i got a few other people to try it	[20:23]
mkb	I don't have javascript turned on :)	[20:24]
mercutio	and one of the things people seemed to notice was that it felt like it "delayed a little" then showed everything at once.	[20:24]
mkb	psychology has a big impact here	[20:24]
mercutio	now i don't know how much delay there really was. but pages definitely seemed less progressive. and one of the problems i used to experience with packet loss is pages would "stutter" when loading and not only did that stutter go away, but web browsers delay before showing pages seemed to kick in and it'd kind of have more ready. and that's partially because it was speeding up things like images. so it'd reduce reflows etc. so it felt quite different but the benchmarks would often not be that different and that's because it shifted a lot of "usefuL" stuff earlier. but often there was some stupid slow annoying thing before the page was finished loading. and often it was lame stuff like tracking and so a nice benchmark to me would be one that doesn't finish for the whole page to load but waited for "enough" to load.	[20:24]
mkb	hmm	[20:27]
mercutio	also it made me really anal about doing minor tweaks/changes :)	[20:28]
mkb	network time? I guess you need the browser to parse the HTML and make all the requests	[20:28]
mercutio	because i didn't have enough time to dedicated to get to the next step. i was working on this before there was a big earthquake in my city. and i moved cities etc. also the other thing i noticed is that it matters so much more if something takes 2 seconds instead of 4 seconds, compared to 1400 msec instead of 1600 msec there's a lot of thresholds involved. but it helped me want to change the way i measure performance to fail/pass like "good enough", "not good enough" there's this network testing in this country which tests the performance of isp's compared to maximum line speed. and it measures "peak time" speed vs "maximum speed" the problem is it pretends to load web pages, but it does it all sequentially.	[20:28]
mkb	I always hate single-number network tests	[20:31]
mercutio	it does bandwidth testing but it looks at the "fastest" bandwidth chunks speedtest.net is bad like that too it also tries to measure "idle" connections. it's a huge peeve with me. to me, all testing should be done all the time. if a connection is busy, and you test adn the internet goes badly, then the isp sucks. it's like if someone is using skype, and you do web browsing and their skype has issues that means the isp is bad!	[20:31]
mkb	or the router	[20:32]
mercutio	well isp's normally provide the router i don't care if you get 90% of your speed in peak times. when you can't have multiple concurrent users. and it's kind of just a mindset thing it's like "muscle cars"	[20:32]
mkb	crap ones but that's true	[20:33]
mercutio	sure they may have high horsepower but that doesn't mean that you'd want to take them rallying	[20:33]
mkb	I told you about AT&T's router's inability to handle more than a few TCP connections at once	[20:34]
mercutio	yaeh it sounds disgusting	[20:34]
mkb	they compound the problem by demanding that you use their router (which does some encryption so you're stuck)	[20:34]
mercutio	god that sucks	[20:34]
mkb	but muscle cars in a rally race are fun to watch on youtube :)	[20:34]
mercutio	hahaha truue buut yeah it's funny how everything ties in together kind of	[20:34]
mkb	you can fix it a lot with PPTP or something	[20:35]
mercutio	like i want to test network health passively too	[20:35]
mkb	since it only sees the one connection	[20:35]
mercutio	yeah i did pptp with the isp that had 1800 ms to use my proxy err and pptp without using proxy and pptp alone helped things that isp had bad tcp windows and a bad transparent proxy err a transparent proxy that had bad tcp window sizes well when i was more into this idea i was trying to think how i could make money off it and how much people woudl pay for fsater browsing and i figured only like $5/month and that i probably couldn't make any money off it	[20:35]
mkb	you could eat akamai and cloudflare's lunch if they're as bad as you say	[20:37]
mercutio	so it was mostly an academic exercise. cloudflare is free and huge akamai has good marketing akamai looks impressive on paper the problem with akamai is there's so many akamai caches that don't sahre cache, that cache misses are way too common if you have less caches with more content and better connections to end servers actually cloudflare could be alot better if they had faster connection from their proxies to a closer end point that connected to the source it's all ntt thouguh well ime i haven't looked that hard so if you have a connection to ntt you should be good for cloudflare.	[20:37]
mkb	no tiered cache? just there or go to origin?	[20:39]
mercutio	yeah they don't tier but tehy don't have that many locations so if ytou have a busy site and they have 12 locations	[20:40]
mkb	I meant akamai	[20:41]
mercutio	it'll pull from each of those locations oh akamai may have redumintary tiering it's a bit of a mess. ther's heaps of different akamai's. akamai streaming or something is really bad here.	[20:41]
mkb	I didn't realize the situation was so bad I guess that's why Google and Amazon do it themselves	[20:41]
mercutio	well it depends what your expectations are i mean my expectation is that every web site should load in less than 2 seconds total. and i'd rather 1 second. and akamai easily pushes sites over 3 seconds. oh amazon is terrible here too most amazon stuff is east coast US	[20:42]
mkb	so am I so it works out well for me hmm	[20:43]
mercutio	curl --compressed http://www.amazon.com/ > /dev/null 0.00s user 0.00s system 0% cpu 2.300 total curl -x arp.meh.net.nz:3128 --compressed http://www.amazon.com/ > /dev/null 0.00s user 0.00s system 0% cpu 2.262 total i have a proxy on there heh oh the otehr thing is that the proxies would use keep alive to stay connected to the remote proxies. yeah you'd think someone as big as amazon could bring it closer to the user.	[20:43]
mkb	they like only having a few big datacenters it seems if EC2 is any indication	[20:44]
mercutio	west coast ec2 isn't that popular	[20:44]
mkb	not that they couldn't colo proxies anywhere	[20:44]
mercutio	most things are east coast. and west coast is seattle which is kind of bad from here :( what time does it take for you with curl?	[20:44]
mkb	1.83, 1.74, 1.87 it's very variable	[20:45]
mercutio	curl --compressed http://www.amazon.com/ > /dev/null 0.01s user 0.01s system 0% cpu 1.472 total that's from dallas on vultr it'll be their site because that's ~36 msec away	[20:45]
mkb	my curl doesn't suppress the progress bar...	[20:46]
mercutio	try curl -q oh i just cut and paste the time line and it's zsh so it's single line time so yeah, that's the other issue, sites that have slow backends :) time curl --compressed https://typekit.com/ > /dev/null try this site	[20:46]
mkb	it's not -q..	[20:47]
mercutio	oh -s ? so typekit.com is 1 second from here adn ping is ~10 msec lower than amzon	[20:48]
mkb	0.19, 0.13, 0.18, 0.33 and still going after >5 seconds... mkb doesn't know what happened there	[20:48]
mercutio	and that site was always fast. try browsing the site it's even faster than it used to be.	[20:48]
mkb	now that's significantly slower too many images	[20:49]
mercutio	sow it looks totally differently than it used to be :) damnit my fast site got slower :)	[20:49]
mkb	an openbsd desktop isn't known for that kind of speed though	[20:50]
mercutio	it was one of the sites someone said is slow for them sometimes. the other one like that was xda developers which was weird, because it had a very close ip to where one of my proxies was :) ahh it's moved it was on steadfast. but it meant i got to test it from very close :)	[20:50]
mkb	how do you separate complaints into network and client issues?	[20:51]
mercutio	what do you mean	[20:52]
mkb	well that supposes something I'm guessing you work or worked for an ISP?	[20:52]
mercutio	you mean if someone says a site is slow for them? yeah i work for an isp.	[20:52]
mkb	and got complaints when the stuff was slow. yeah? sometimes it's a problem with their end or the site	[20:52]
mercutio	hardly anyone complains about speed.	[20:53]
mkb	if it's the site maybe you can fix it but some people have a shitton of viruses installed	[20:53]
mercutio	yeah if someone complains about speed it's probably that they've got a virus or are uploading too much. or have wireless issues. i only really get involved if can't access a site or something hardly anyone complains to isp's about speed except gamers. that's why some isp's say they hate gamers.	[20:53]
mkb	I'd complain about latency for SSH if I thought it would help any	[20:54]
mercutio	hmm	[20:54]
mkb	most likely I'd get stuck trying to explain to the customer support drone what SSH is	[20:54]
mercutio	yeah i wouldn't complain about latency to at&t i'd just tunnel it	[20:54]
mkb	and most likely they'd eventually tell me SSH is unsupported	[20:55]
mercutio	heh actually i seem to remember complaining about ssh latency once. i'm trying to remember why	[20:55]
mkb	I used to complain when their network would drop but I learned it doesn't help	[20:55]
mercutio	nah escapes me. i've used heaps of different isp's.	[20:55]
mkb	DSLAM was across the street	[20:56]
mercutio	that can cause issues. some modems hate dslams being too close they get overloaded.	[20:56]
mkb	hmm	[20:56]
mercutio	i know paradoxical :) it's like when someone's shouting in your ear and it's harder to hear what they're saying than if they shout from further away	[20:56]
mkb	it's been better since we moved	[20:57]
mercutio	the obvious answer is to reduce the volume.	[20:57]
mkb	except the phone service	[20:57]
mercutio	umm you know what can help though if you hit that again try adding a phone extension cable even a 10 metre (30 feet) cable can make a difference. i've heard of it helping, seriously.	[20:57]
mkb	wow	[20:58]
mercutio	i dunno if you've heard of people saying not to use extension cables but lots of things go around where people get "general wisdom" that doesn't always apply. also i think vdsl copes better with short lines. compared to adsl.	[20:58]
mkb	there's lots of general wisdom that's based on nothing more than what someone made up once u-verse is that and I think the network is fine except their damn router	[20:59]
mercutio	well exetension cables can reduce speed by a megabit or more.	[20:59]
mkb	I have plain old fashioned adsl though	[20:59]
mercutio	i had a friend who was using them there was terrible routing. there was high latency too but i dunno if that was just the routing or interleaving. vdsl is better :)	[21:00]
mkb	I wouldn't be surprised. I meant that the dropping connections was the router	[21:00]
mercutio	what's your next hop latency like?	[21:01]
mkb	1. hmrtr.b 0.0% 9 0.7 3.2 0.7 19.8 6.3 2. adsl-74-177-71-1.gsp.bellsouth.n 0.0% 9 16.0 16.8 7.3 80.6 24.0 3. 72.157.40.72 0.0% 9 27.5 41.4 17.6 155.9 44.9 4. 12.81.44.64 11.1% 9 18.7 22.2 17.4 28.2 4.8	[21:01]
mercutio	hmm bloody icmp deprioritisation it's hard to tell but 7.3 is fine then it jumps up y like 10 msec. and it seeriously looks like you have jitter.	[21:01]
mkb	a lot of it	[21:02]
mercutio	where's that to?	[21:02]
mkb	4.2.2.1 but the near end so it's always like that	[21:02]
mercutio	i have low jitter to hop 2 so i don't think it is depriorisation :) i've got 0.5 msec jitter to hop 2	[21:02]
mkb	it's wireless though, that probably contributes after 100 packets even to the local router it's best 0.6 and worst 1.8 19.8*	[21:03]
mercutio	yeah the router sucks :)	[21:03]
mkb	oh the router's great well I should say	[21:04]
mercutio	rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.605/0.704/1.820/0.115 ms, ipg/ewma 0.738/0.678 ms hmm that's a flood ping	[21:04]
mkb	the router is great. the wifi part may not be	[21:04]
mercutio	buut that's the same hahaha	[21:04]
mkb	the actual router is an openbsd machine	[21:04]
mercutio	oh hangon max of 1.8 or average of 1.8 i compare min to avg	[21:05]
mkb	still trouble round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 6.340/6.861/17.765/0.655 ms but at the wrong time round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 6.352/34.895/122.308/9.227 ms to the nexthop	[21:07]
mercutio	the diff between min/avg is fine hmm he next hop maybe has deprioristation to you but not me weird i'm down to 0.3 msec jitter now oh no i'm not 3.1 msec jitter :) err 3.3 msec buut yeah if you wqorry too much about jitter you'd go crazy jitter is mch less of an issue than packet loss on wan linsk normally	[21:07]
mkb	I'm just tired of this game where latency goes up to 5000ms for two minutes intermittantly	[21:09]
mercutio	as much as i like fq_codel, packet loss sucks. well yeah that's serious buffer bloat. but yeah that's the kind of thing i think wuold be cool to test for and would go in the "fail" category and be counted as downtime. if only i could get funding for developing such things haha the problem is to really identify problem locations/areas/etc you need to have lots of users. so you kind of want tests that can run on windows as an app	[21:09]
mkb	the router is a better place for it	[21:12]
mercutio	and have enough users to rule out local issues.	[21:12]
mkb	at least from the ISPs perspective	[21:12]
mercutio	not from the users pov. if their "internet they use" is slow	[21:13]
mkb	I mean I'd rather let them run code on their router than install it on my desktop	[21:13]
mercutio	it doesn't reall matter if it's the wireless or the isp but if you want to isp agnostic.	[21:13]
mkb	if it's the ISP that's running the test I meant	[21:13]
mercutio	would you rather have an extra box or not? it shouldn't be the isp that runs the test. it should be indepedant like the testing here favours the cable isp here cos the cable isp has burst	[21:13]
mkb	I was thinking about an ISP trying to identify problems with their own network	[21:14]
mercutio	but it's too little burst to be useful.	[21:14]
mkb	just enough for the test :)	[21:14]
mercutio	oh i'm thinking of trying to map the state of the internet around the world. and identify things like local level3 congestion issues :) i'm fascinated by reading about the US's congestion issues :) and peering disputes it's a lot simpler here. it's complicated enouuguh in the US that i don't /know/ the situation	[21:14]
mkb	it's getting late here all this sounds interesting though	[21:16]
mercutio	heh	[21:18]
mkb	goodnight	[21:19]
mercutio	'night	[21:20]
..... (idle for 23mn)
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......................... (idle for 2h0mn)
up_the_irons	damn scrollback looks very interesting yet i'll never have time to read it all	[23:48]

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