[00:51] *** laotzu has joined #arpnetworks [00:53] *** laotzu has quit IRC (Client Quit) [00:54] *** laotzu has joined #arpnetworks [01:00] *** laotzu has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) [01:03] *** laotzu has joined #arpnetworks [01:03] *** laotzu has quit IRC (Client Quit) [02:57] *** brycec has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [02:57] *** toddf has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [02:58] *** toddf has joined #arpnetworks [02:58] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o toddf [02:59] *** brycec has joined #arpnetworks [04:17] *** koan_ is now known as koan [05:28] *** laotzi has joined #arpnetworks [06:11] *** joepie91_ has joined #arpnetworks [06:12] *** joepie91 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [11:15] *** laotzi has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [11:15] *** laotzi has joined #arpnetworks [12:26] *** ThalinVien has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [12:35] *** ThalinVien has joined #arpnetworks [12:36] *** ThalinVien is now known as Guest68429 [14:25] *** hive-mind has joined #arpnetworks [14:38] *** Alistair_ has joined #arpnetworks [14:38] Hello! [14:40] hi. [14:43] How long is the setup normally? [14:44] it may take up to 24 hours i think [14:44] Would BGP take longer on top of that? [14:45] ah, i was assuming you were talking about vpses and dedicated servers, my bad. not sure about that to be honest [14:45] Yeah, I just ordered a VPS and will be looking for a BGP session on top of it [14:46] Sorry, I should have said [14:47] up_the_irons: Are you here at the moment? [14:49] Alistair_: best to e-mail support@ [14:55] it's most evenings US time [14:55] alistair: bgp is less than a week normally i think [14:56] but more than a day [14:56] i have bgp btw [14:56] Sweet, I'm only just getting to grips with BGP :) [14:57] BGP is so much fun [14:57] what OS? [14:57] I ordered debian 6 to run with quagga [14:58] I have a raspberry pi running at home with quagga too and it's alright but there is no peers for me at home [14:58] ok [14:58] i hate quagga, but it works [14:58] What do you use? [14:58] i use openbgpd, bird, and quagga [14:58] Ah [14:58] i like openbgpd the best [14:58] i wish there was a version on linux [14:59] quagga was just the easiest for me to setup as a first time BGP user [14:59] openbgpd was great [14:59] was playing it with it at home [14:59] well the main annoyance with quagga is the route maps [14:59] for filtering prefixes [14:59] static: i had huge issues with zebra [14:59] so i changed to quagga [14:59] and i stilli had issues [14:59] one day i decided to try openbgpd [14:59] I managed to peer 2 machines but neither of which had the routing tables [14:59] and i'm like paranoid [15:00] cos quagga was a pita [15:00] :/ [15:00] and that's the bit that I want to see and have a bit of fun with [15:00] then it's like uhh [15:00] that was "too easy" [15:00] mercutio: I did RouterOS <-> openbgpd [15:00] static: oh god, i've tried using routeros [15:00] i still get confused [15:00] its not that hard [15:00] is there some clean way on routeros to find out what routes you're advertising? [15:00] i agree its not intuitive [15:00] sec [15:01] i haven't touched routeros too much [15:01] but whenever i do i'm like erk [15:01] Can you BGP over WAN? So say I peer with someone that has the global routing table and announce the block, would this work or do I need to peer with my band width provider too? [15:01] static: arp only has partial bgp tables btw [15:01] oops [15:01] alistair even [15:01] what do you want route tables for? [15:02] you can bgp over anything [15:02] you can use bgp multihop if you're not adjacent [15:02] One of my partners has allowed me to use his spare /24 [15:02] or you can use a tunnel to be adjacent [15:02] mercutio: /routing bgp network print [15:02] alistair: cool. [15:02] but im sure without the routing table peers I cant use the ips [15:03] that doesn't show detail [15:03] i want to see what routes with what prepends are being advertised to what peers [15:03] alistair: you don't need to see other routes to advertise a /24 [15:03] Oh? [15:03] mercutio: yea i don't think the functionality is that great [15:03] but i haven't played with it in depth [15:04] Mind giving me a few pointers as to how I go about this then? [15:04] when you advertise a subnet, you just asking other poeple to send traffic for that subnet to you [15:04] when you see routes, from one or more hosts, it means you can see what path it takes [15:04] and if more than one peer choose the best path [15:04] I see [15:04] alistair: well, i'm pretty sure arp use prefix lists themselves [15:04] so you can't really do anything wrong [15:04] and you don't even have another route table to inject [15:05] are you going to advertise the /24 just on arp? [15:05] BGP has got to be the most confusing thing i've ever used [15:05] or are you looking to do something omre complex like anycast [15:05] alistair: that's what i heard in 2000 [15:05] then i started to learn more about it [15:05] and i'm like why did i think it was complicated? :) [15:05] Just looking to use it on ARP [15:05] mm.. [15:06] yeh that setup is pretty simple [15:06] Uni/multicast i think is what im after [15:06] i can help you if you get stuck [15:06] do you have an ASN? [15:06] Yeah [15:06] or can you use ASN of whoever owns the subnet [15:06] The owner of the subnet ASN [15:06] As an edge network on the internet who just announces a single prefix to one or two upstreams, BGP is quite straightforward [15:07] plett: yeh [15:07] basically you just do: [15:07] router bgp [15:07] network [15:07] neighber 174.136...(ip address of gateway) remote-as 25795 [15:07] neighbor [15:07] yea [15:07] It's when you want to provide BGP to other people, or have multiple locations to announce from, that it gets complicated [15:08] you're from the uk? [15:08] I am yes [15:08] so you prob are like thinking neighbour should work :/ [15:08] but it doesn't :/ [15:08] heh [15:08] I'll PM you the subnet and ASN [15:08] * plett is also from the UK :) [15:09] you probably also want a route map :/ [15:09] for good measure [15:09] access-list local_nets permit Wsubnet> [15:09] * Alistair_ is in the north of the UK [15:09] access-list local_nets deny any [15:09] * plett is in the much better south [15:10] yeh that subnet isn't already advertised to the internet [15:10] Yup [15:10] not even as part of a larger subnet [15:10] There is a another subnet I can use if i need to use one under a larger subnet [15:11] should be fine [15:11] some people strip /24s [15:11] like arp :/ [15:11] but there's usually default routes [15:11] I think that is what my partner has done [15:11] that'll get through anyway [15:12] How possible is it to use said subnet on a home router? [15:12] With quagga on said router of course [15:12] well your isp prob won't let you do bgp to them [15:12] unless you're using a geek isp :/ [15:12] mercutio: ARP don't filter all /24s, my home address space is reachable [15:12] No they don't [15:12] plett: reachable by default route? [15:13] i think they allow /24s on any2ix [15:13] Could I say perhaps BGP over WAN to a peer and announce it? [15:13] you can tunnel the /24 [15:13] mercutio: Looks like it's going over NTT from ARP [15:13] but if you're in the UK the path will be much worse [15:13] your isp might advertise the /24 on your behalf [15:13] if you ask them nicely [15:13] and route it to your home [15:13] depending on how geeky they are agin :/ [15:14] i have a /29 for home [15:14] I tried that, they're answer was "What is BGP?" >.> [15:14] plett: i think ntt is default route, tell me the subnet and i can ccheck if it's in arp's bgp table :/ [15:14] Alistair_: If you happen to need a better ISP, I work for aa.net.uk [15:14] alistair: heh [15:14] mercutio: 91.241.56.0/24 [15:14] plett: do you do bgp to customers? [15:14] err home users [15:15] yeah it's not [15:15] Virgin media is just so bad but its the only service that can get me more than 2mbps [15:15] mercutio: We prefer not to do it over residential grade DSL connections, but if that's the only way then yes [15:15] plett: heh [15:15] alistair: you could tunnel all of your traffic [15:15] mercutio: That prefix is being announced over my FTTC VDSL from home [15:15] maybe plett's isp can sell you a l2tp/ipsec tunnel or soemthing :/ [15:16] you';re 3.2557? [15:16] So that'd be BGP over GRE? [15:16] l2tp isn't gre [15:17] virgin media is cable right [15:17] Well same idea as it [15:17] Yeah they are FTTC [15:17] mercutio: We are more than happy to announce other people's IP space on their behalf and route it to their DSL line(s). We've got a handful of particularly geeky customers who do that [15:17] the main issue is you need to do mss clamping [15:17] Virgin is DOCSIS cable, yes [15:17] if you can't do a bigger l2 mtu [15:17] plett: but you can't resell virgin cable can you? :) [15:18] plett: that, to me, sounds like asking for problems :) [15:18] mercutio: No, we can't. They don't offer wholesale connections to anyone [15:18] but i'm fine doing it for myself. [15:18] :/ [15:18] plett: yeah i thought that was the case [15:18] and BT suck [15:18] i have a friend who used to live in cambridge [15:18] and bitched about how bad internet in the UK was [15:18] BT Retail suck. The wholesale service can be made to work well [15:18] apparently cambridge is especially bad [15:18] So if I did BGP over l2tp/ipsec where would the traffic go? Over the tunnel or over my virgin line? [15:19] like 1 megabit dsl or something [15:19] or virgin who he refused to deal with [15:19] alistair: to the tunnel endpoint [15:19] Thought so [15:19] you can do it on a vps in the UK [15:19] or someone who'll terminate l2tp [15:19] ti's basifcally a vpn [15:19] BGP sounds like so much fun haha [15:20] but afaik BT ppp termiantes in something akin to l2tp anyway [15:20] so infrastructure support in the UK shoudl be good anyway :/ [15:20] plett: does BT wholesale support 1500 mtu yet? [15:20] mercutio: Yes. That's what we buy from BT. There are other options where they terminate it and route IP to the ISP, but that sucks [15:21] Yes. 1500 mtu is no problem, even over PPPoE [15:21] BT says that my postcode gets "Up to 5.5Mbps", didn't even get 3Mbps so hence why went with virgin [15:21] BT does RFC4638 [15:21] (and yes, I do know that RFC number from memory) [15:21] haha [15:21] pppoe ftl [15:21] plett: so would you sell l2tp tunnel ? :)" [15:22] pppoe is fine [15:22] mercutio: We do, yes :) [15:22] nah [15:22] plett: do you do ipsec on it? [15:22] No, just plain L2TP at the moment [15:22] oh yip [15:23] probably fine :/ [15:23] so alistair confused yet? [15:23] Very [15:23] BGP over an L2TP to a residential grade connection elsewhere on the internet wouldn't be something I'd prefer to do, but it would work [15:23] if you wanted to get creative [15:23] you could do l2tp to arp, and l2tp to plett's isp [15:23] and advertise the subnet on both [15:23] but prepend the routes to arp :/ [15:24] Alistair_: What is the problem you're actually trying to solve? [15:24] he just wants a /24 at home i think [15:24] and to play with bgp [15:24] Yeah, more to play with BGP than anything [15:24] * mercutio lets alistair answer [15:24] I have the ASN and IP space already from elsewhere but I don't want to pay too much just to play [15:25] alistair: it's an uncommon request tbh [15:25] Yeah, hence why im after advice [15:25] arp is kind of cool in that they do it easily [15:25] Alistair_: Out of interest, how did you get address space and an ASN without also already knowing how to do this sort of thing? [15:25] plett: Partner I work with let me borrow his [15:26] RIPE PI space? [15:26] AH now there is a problem [15:26] ARIN PI [15:26] Not a technical problem, possibly a logistical one [15:27] I don't know what ARIN's policies are about using their address space outside of the ARIN region [15:27] It's a no-no [15:27] I thought that might be the case. That is also RIPE's policy [15:27] it's written but its not enforced very often [15:28] i'm advertising APNIC IP space to arp [15:28] Can you open a BGP session with a second router with the same ASN? [15:28] yes [15:28] mercutio: Do APNIC have a similar policy? [15:28] plett: huh? [15:29] i've never heard of such a policy [15:29] * staticsafe wonders how much IP space + ASN costs in ARIN region [15:29] it works [15:29] Okay [15:29] but i have a backup tunnel [15:29] i'm advertising /24 that's inside a bigger /21 [15:29] and there's a backup route to get back [15:29] So I could in theory have my partner setup l2tp on his router and peer with me at home and both use the same ASN? [15:29] but it seems to just work [15:29] mercutio: I only ask because I had an email from an Australian who is moving to the UK and wants to bring his APNIC /24 space and use it on his UK broadband [15:29] alistair: you can use the same ASN in multiple unconnected locations [15:30] plett: well tehre may be non ideal routing [15:30] but i think that's mostly a think of the 90s [15:30] it used to be routers that could only take 100k or less routes were common [15:30] etc [15:30] mercutio: I would only be peered with the one router though [15:30] and having non PI space was a problem [15:31] nad lots of peopld idn't have proper PI space [15:31] but instead an allocation from a larger subnet [15:31] Yeah. De-aggregation sucks a bit [15:31] Alistair_: if at all possible i'd try and get "close" distance for the tunnel [15:31] Long live IPv6 :) [15:31] you don't want to go to UK sites via the US [15:32] that'd be a long half a second or more [15:32] which is why i was suggesting that plett's isp may be able to do something [15:32] Yeah of course without doubt [15:32] About 150ms round trip time between ARP and London [15:33] that little? [15:33] There is a public exchange in scotland (IXScotland) so ideally something that is in the same datacentre [15:33] that's high [15:33] the ideal path is more like 130 [15:33] considering the distance, not really [15:33] but often things aren't ideal :/ [15:34] mercutio: That's from ARP to here via NTT [15:34] plett: ntt both directions? [15:34] From ARP to www.bbc.co.uk , it's about 136ms [15:34] I have 7ms to IXScotland [15:34] mercutio: Yep. NTT both ways [15:34] hah it's 156 via atrato [15:34] to maidstone [15:34] Alistair_: IXScotland is still very very new and small [15:35] Yeah but it's there so its a step in the right direction [15:35] 146 to bbc.co.uk [15:35] via ntt/telia [15:35] Alistair_: Absolutely [15:35] The datacenter that it's in has 16 carriers so it should grow soon [15:36] alistair: well if you can terminate there that's good [15:36] can you get a vps there? [15:36] We are LINX members, and peer on the London LAN. If we had any existing infrastructure in Manchester or Edinburgh, we'd be peering there too [15:37] mercutio: It wouldn't make a difference really because virgin media is not peered there yet [15:37] unless I got a dedi and got my transit from VM [15:37] i thought you had 7 msec to there [15:38] virgin aren't pro peering i think [15:38] Virgin is on site but the 7msec is not leaving their network [15:38] thats to their routers onsite [15:38] how much is it to a host on that network? [15:39] Not too sure, the host is carrier neutral so it would most likely be transit from VM [15:39] They don't seem to list prices on their website [15:41] I've been in their newbridge facility but never in their south gyle one which is where IXScotland is [15:42] well good luck :) [15:43] I am considering touring their south gyle one for nothing more than a look and ball parks [15:43] Alistair_: Is that Pulsant (ex Scolocate/Lumison) ? [15:44] It is indeed [15:44] We are Pulsant (ex BlueSquare) customers in Maidenhead [15:45] What is your experience like with them? [15:46] The idea of not paying remote hands on colo is really appealing to me seeing we pay up to £70 per hour [15:46] remote hands usually suck [15:46] i'd recommend doing it yourself :/ [15:46] We're fairly happy with them [15:46] At least in Pulsant at Edinburgh its only a 15 minute drive away [15:47] Yeah. We're about 15 mins drive from them in Maidenhead [15:47] hmm alistair: does your partner have ip address space at that dc? [15:47] But we only ever have to visit in the event of a hardware failure. IPMI and out-of-band access takes care of everything else [15:48] He doesn't sadly [15:48] oh [15:48] I think he is looking into it with the exchange being on site though [15:48] i wouldn't woorry about excahnges being on site too much [15:48] i'd consider a good dc a higher priority [15:49] Yeah [15:49] i used to think differently [15:49] but now days lots of people run ring networks to various locations [15:49] and there's lots of shared networks you can get on [15:50] Well if their Newbridge facility was anything to go by when I took a tour of it then their South gyle one is supposed to be even better [15:50] sounds expensive :) [15:50] I've got to run. Bedtime for me :) [15:50] They wanted £50 + network and power for a 1U box [15:50] is it 1 am for you plett? [15:50] mercutio: 23:50 at the moment [15:50] 50 pounds? [15:50] sounds reasonable [15:50] Yeah [15:51] not great though [15:51] plett: bertter run before you turn into a pumpkin then [15:52] Indeed. I need to get up for work in the morning :) [15:52] I've been doing freelance for someone over in the states lately so nighshift for me tonight [15:54] heh [15:57] I actually can't wait to get my hands on some real BGP stuff xD [15:58] heh [15:58] you never know up_the_irons might poke his head in and decide to do it quickly :) [15:58] actually [15:58] it takes ages [15:58] because upstreams have to be sent the ip's too [15:58] and can take a few hours or something to unfilter them [15:58] i forgot about thjat :/ [15:59] Ah [15:59] i want to do more anycast heh [15:59] anycast is cool [15:59] it means you can have dns server on one ip adress in mltuple locations [15:59] and the closest dns server responds [16:00] Yeah [16:00] My partner has a range on anycast with host virtual [16:00] ahh ok [16:00] HTTP nodes for DDoS protection proxies [16:00] i just contacted host virtual about setting up bgp :/ [16:00] it looks ilke it's free on hostvirtual [16:01] fwiw i reckon arp is better than hostvirtual [16:01] We actually got some pretty neat ip's in our /22 [16:01] but i have lower ping to host virtual [16:01] Setup rsync for all the servers, trust me [16:01] well hostvirtual in san jose [16:01] partner never did it and now its 9 manual changes >.> [16:01] what [16:01] there's a $200 setup fee [16:02] Netrouting is pretty good too [16:03] ok they only do it on 1gb of ram or more hosts [16:03] $200 setup fee [16:03] $300/month for anycast ip's [16:03] blah blah [16:03] there's $0 monthly fee [16:03] but $200 setup fee is heaps [16:03] when i want to just play with it [16:03] heh [16:04] do doo doo [16:04] Yup [16:04] maybe i shoudl cancel my vm with them [16:04] i'm going to complain that it says free on their web site :/ [16:04] free* [16:04] I found arp networks looking for cheap servers with BGP to play with [16:07] yeh so did i i think [16:07] no actually i found it cos i wanted openbsd [16:08] and ipv6 was nice [16:08] i think bgp came later [16:08] actually i might have asked about bgp before it was offered [16:08] i've asked other providers about bgp :/ [16:08] Most of them won't do it [16:08] steadfast will [16:09] it's so annoying because I already have servers that I could use without paying extra but they won't do bgp [16:09] I'm mainly with OVH at the minute [16:09] i think ovh will do bgp [16:09] I've asked over the phone and they said nope [16:09] maybe I should try emailing them [16:09] http://forum.ovh.co.uk/showthread.php?2589-AS-BGP-peering-and-transit [16:10] That's from 2009, they said it's changed now [16:10] i think they used to do bgp? [16:10] i dunno [16:10] heh [16:10] damn [16:10] some poeople don't want to deal with the complications on lower paying customers :/ [16:11] haha [16:11] i swearched for bgp and vps [16:11] and found arp first [16:11] It's taken me days to find arp [16:11] and gridlane that i've never heard of in sweden [16:12] arp is still cheaper [16:13] yeh [16:13] i'm just looking for more locaitons :/ [16:14] What is it that you need the locations for? [16:14] anycast [16:14] dns :/ [16:14]