#arpnetworks 2013-08-28,Wed

hazardous

i've never kicked a beanbag before

brachiation

yeah it was in a big open field.

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hazardous

you'd prob get arrested nowadays if you did that because it's a "potential danger to others"

up_the_irons

oh.. was that at kevi's bday party or something...

brachiation

i think it was kevi's party.

up_the_irons

man.. memories

brachiation

yep, that's when it was.

hazardous

it feels weird being in a channel where people talk about things that happened before i was born

staticsafe

old people!

[02:06]

up_the_irons

lol

[02:07]

brachiation

you are only old when you settle in life. if you keep learning, and doing things, you live just as much as any kid.
but sometimes i get weird looks when i go to a park by myself and play on the slide.

[02:07]

mike-burns

But if you remember the commercial about getting chocolate in her peanut butter, you're probably considered old.
(I learned this recently.)

hazardous

i dunno what that is
lol

up_the_irons

up_the_irons thinks
up_the_irons shrugs

brachiation

looking that up right now... found on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJLDF6qZUX0

mike-burns

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJLDF6qZUX0
Yeah.

brachiation

never seen it, yay i'm not old!

[02:10]

mike-burns

I'm surprised you don't remember it!

[02:10]

brachiation

the oldest thing i can remember watching is fraggle rock.

[02:12]

hazardous

i spent a good minute
trying to figure out how to turn up quality for that

[02:13]

staticsafe

hazardous: starting uni, how old are you? :o

[02:13]

hazardous

then read the title
:L

[02:14]

brachiation

if you remember a time when you could trick or treat AFTER the sunset, then you are old.

[02:14]

up_the_irons

up_the_irons nods

[02:14]

hazardous

haha
brachiation, after the sunset?
this implies you're even allowed outside
my friend;s little brother did a trick or treat last year and it basically involved going to a community church's parking lot
and everyone had a few bags of candy in their trunk
and just going around and getting some

[02:15]

brachiation

nowadays people start trick or treating at like 4am, and stop by 6:30.
4pm*

[02:15]

mike-burns

4am seems reasonable, too.

[02:17]

brachiation

wouldn't get much candy though.

[02:18]

my grandparents used to give me entire candy bars. i always thought people who did that were millionaires.

[02:26]

up_the_irons

hahaha

[02:29]

hazardous

fun sized: not actually fun

[02:32]

brachiation

they just keep making the regular size smaller, so they can make a new 'king size' that is the same as what regular used to be.

[02:38]

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[02:54]

rgouveia

[02:54]

up_the_irons

heya

[03:07]

rgouveia

i was wondering what's the kvm host that you use ... looking at switching from esxi5 which hosts a bunch of openbsd guests

[03:17]

up_the_irons

rgouveia: do you mean kvm/qemu version?

[03:17]

rgouveia

yeah, and under wichi distro

[03:18]

up_the_irons

rgouveia: most of our hosts are still on ubuntu jaunty. Our newer ones are on Lucid.

[03:19]

brachiation

Windows Virtual PC, running virtualized Windows XP's under a Windows Server 2003 host.
with Weatherbug preinstalled on each guest.

[03:23]

rgouveia

up_the_irons: right, better support on ubuntu than others or just personal preference?

[03:24]

hazardous

brachiation: man, i remember winxp, my first OS lol

[03:24]

rgouveia

brachiation: yeah, and virtualgirl

brachiation

rgouveia: is that a screensaver?

up_the_irons

rgouveia: personal preference

rgouveia

up_the_irons: okidoke, thanks!

up_the_irons

rgouveia: no problem :)

rgouveia

brachiation: yeah, something like that bonzi gorilla iirc

hazardous

i think you guys
would appreicate this

brachiation

lol bonzai buddy!

hazardous

http://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/1l7baq/creating_a_user_from_the_web_problem/
i think brachiation vomited

brachiation

oh my god...

[03:28]

staticsafe

heh

[03:28]

brachiation

did he... destroy his webserver?
i don't see anymore replies from him after the suggested input.
it is a joke i think.
my favorite is this one: http://bash.org/?244321

[03:29]

up_the_irons

LOL "I sense a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced"

[03:33]

staticsafe

bash.org ftw

[03:33]

toddf

if you don't want to reinvent the management bits random shout out for proxmox.com (free distro, can get paid support if need be) .. its debian plus kvm plus proxmox virtual environment, can cluster manage servers, etc..

[03:44]

up_the_irons

i should offer private cloud packages with hardware + proxmox bundled
toddf: did you notice any network blips during the last 10 - 15 mins? I had to reset our NTT link and was wondering how well the failover worked...

[03:46]

rgouveia

toddf: heard of that too

[03:48]

staticsafe

up_the_irons: monitoring didn't say anything, so I guess the failover worked :p

[03:49]

up_the_irons

staticsafe: sweet :)

[03:50]

toddf

up_the_irons: I'm noticing less network blips now that I've moved my irssi to home instead of my vps. did this way back when I thought the vps was unstable but turns out it was the virtio nic implementation in openbsd or something.

[03:51]

up_the_irons

toddf: ah ok
toddf: do you run proxmox on any of your own gear, or for work... or?

[03:51]

toddf

I would move it back, except by being at home I can hit a silc of a client over openvpn that I'm not quite sure I should plumb up to be accessable from my vps .. ;-)

[03:52]

up_the_irons

[03:53]

toddf

up_the_irons: have a friend who lets me play in his proxmox env, uses freenas for backing store; I have one client with proxmox installed and another client that's moving towards replacing esxi with proxomx (they have the version that does not have the license to even do serial console over tcp)
the one that plans to replace esxi is likely to use the clustering capabilities (can migrate vm's between hosts, manage common auth bits, web ui rocks, no windows to manage!)

[03:53]

up_the_irons

so i'm finally settled into weechat 0.4.1, and latest bitlee (can use twitter now), and i must say... awesome. I can tweet way easier and not have a browser plugin that requires access to all info in all tabs and all history (wth do so many chrome plugins need this??)

[03:55]

staticsafe

bitlbee is awesome indeed

[03:55]

toddf

regardless of the rest, the one hands down feature I still find mind blowing is that /etc/pve is a fuse fs that presents vi'able config files that are live updated from the db and stored back in the db upon write, so web ui and cmdline fs are all reading/writing from the same db ;-)

[03:56]

up_the_irons

holy shit
sold.
toddf: and all this is included in the free version?

[03:56]

toddf

the 2nd most mind blowing bits about proxmox is that there is a command line tool to manage vm's.. 'qm start 300' 'qm stop 300' 'qm list' (it also manages openvz instances)
to the best of my knowledge proxmox is 100% free .. if you want a support contract, thats when you pay

[03:57]

up_the_irons

wow holy crap
i wonder if it has vmware or ec2 compatible api's...

[03:58]

rgouveia

toddf: any ideas of how upgrades work in the longerm ?

[04:02]

toddf

the one single feature I wish I had time to develop for them is the ability to enable the serial port via the web ui .. as it is one can add serial support via an 'args:' entry in their conf file manually, aka 'args: -serial tcp:localhost:5000,server,nowait' etc
rgouveia: standard 'apt-get update;apt-get upgrade;apt-get dist-upgrade' or if you're paranoid just have multiple systems in a cluster, migrate vm's away from a system you want to upgrade, and reinstall the upgrade'ing system from scratch, migrate back, done .. choose your poison

[04:02]

rgouveia

it just looks too good to be true ;-)

[04:04]

up_the_irons

toddf: how does your friend like freenas?
rgouveia: yeah i know right? ;)

[04:04]

rgouveia

in their pricing page they mention: 'Stable software updates' on the paid versions

[04:07]

hazardous

probably off topic, but why is my bsd box sending kqueue_add: fdpoll is full ! x 3 bililon to my terminal

[04:08]

toddf

up_the_irons: has complained now and then, but once upgraded to v3 proxmox that supports nfsv4 apparently works much better; doesn't have switches that can do laags so had to put iscsi on one nic and nfs on another before things were acceptable; freenas is more or less a web ui wrapper around freebsd + iscsi + zfs + nfs server + cifs + appletalk file server; it has some lack of logging is the biggest complaint; I actually have a ...
... freenas system under my wing at the same client who is moving to proxmox, likely to learn a lot in the process ;-)

[04:08]

up_the_irons

toddf: ah cool

rgouveia

seems that are two repos: http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Package_repositories

toddf

hazardous: you probably are reaching a threshold in system limits, either increase system limits, or tell your app to stop going berzerk

up_the_irons

hazardous: tubes clogged

http://todd.fries.net/pub/proxmox-cli-demo.txt ..

rgouveia

time to get some food, bbl

[04:10]

up_the_irons

up_the_irons waves

[04:11]

toddf

[04:15]

up_the_irons

LOL "ToddsCrap"
that looks pretty awesome

[04:16]

toddf

the webgui console is java, works with anything I've used, but is slow .. at least its encrypted .. but I can avoid that by doing an inetd trick running 'qm vncproxy 300' then connecting via '/usr/local/lib/ssvnc/ssvnc_cmd -proxy vencrypt://10.255.3.129:59701 10.255.3.129:59701 -noraiseonbeep'

[04:18]

up_the_irons

wonder how proxmox compares to http://www.stackops.org/

[04:21]

toddf

seriously, I'm plunking around in vsphere, written my own scripts to manage qemu instances, used ibm's aix virtualization interface (vios), and then tried proxmox .. I don't know why anybody uses vmware when there is proxmox .. I understand completely that arpnetworks has developed a custom infrastructure to efficiently maange hosts, there is no point in retooling for e.g. proxmox when it just keeps working .. though if ...
... arpnetworks were starting today I'd imagine proxmox would give it a jumpstart it didn't have in the past ;-)

[04:22]

up_the_irons

oh for sure

[04:23]

toddf

hmm, proxmox is geared towards enterprize'ish management of clusters of vm servers .. brief glance at stackops suggests it is geared towards vps providers such as yourself .. no clue on the details differing the two beyond that so far ;-)

[04:24]

up_the_irons

when i sold our first kvm/qemu based VPS back in early 2009, hardly any of this stuff existed
yeah i think i agree with that assessment

[04:24]

plett

toddf: Looking at that proxmox config file, I much prefer that plain text format over libvirt's XML

[04:25]

up_the_irons

up_the_irons nods

[04:28]

toddf

not sure what stackops community edition vs enterprise is all about when you can download the enterprise iso, I see a feature list checklist that puts enterprise in the desirable category for anybody serious about their vms, don't see anywhere it costs *shrug*

[04:28]

quote from proxmox forum:
libvirt does not solve any problem we have, so we dont use it.
Its just an additional level of overhead so far.

[04:35]

up_the_irons

interesting

[04:38]

toddf

oh and you can install proxmox inside a non kvm capable host (including a vps) .. it just won't use hardware acceleration if it can't load either the amd or intel linux modules that does the kvm bits
now if your vps'en permit virtualized kvm .. demo away!
(the free version of esxi that my client has loaded doesn't do this, perhaps newer versions do)

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up_the_irons

toddf: hosts >= kvr27 can do kvm within kvm, i believe
no idea on performance or stability, but i see the feature in syslog.. ;)

[04:57]

toddf

nice

[04:58]

staticsafe

up_the_irons: which hosts have virtio?

[05:06]

up_the_irons

staticsafe: they all do.. do you mean ones compatible with openbsd on boot? (that would be >= kvr27)

[05:06]

staticsafe

ah, I run FreeBSD, not sure if its enabled
maybe I should use svn instead of portsnap for ports updates

[05:07]

up_the_irons

virtio for disk on FreeBSD is possible with >= kvr27, I believe. but iirc, not everyone who tried could get it working. perhaps someone can correct me on this...
5am already... bah. sleep time... brachiation and I have a big data center day later. 8 new blade servers for y'all to buy :)
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[13:34]

brycec

been playing with Proxmox a bit and wow, this is pro-grade stuff. Very niec!
*nice
My home-spun VM "architecture" built on VirtualBox is finally doomed

[13:38]

toddf

heh

[13:47]

GluffiS

proxmox is nice... clustring is fine as long as you have multicast :D

[13:59]

toddf

have not played with that aspect, good to know

[14:02]

GluffiS

we run it for production

[14:02]

toddf

so have you seen or heard of a htm5 console? I can only find references to java, and references on the forums of no html5 vnc client being up to snuff.. yet a friend of mine swears he is using it

[14:03]

GluffiS

nope...

[14:05]

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[14:05]

GluffiS

i'm not that involved in kvm management :D

[14:05]

toddf

have you deployed conserver + serial consoles on it or heard of them working on that aspect? I know everybody is in love with graphics these days, but nothing beats a serial console for debugging an os (especially but not limited to openbsd)

[14:06]

GluffiS

nope, we stick to vnc consoles...

[14:06]

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[15:02]

brycec

I'm really, really hating the Java console...
Mostly the fact that I have to install Java
and that IcedTea isn't too keen on working
but when it does work, it works pretty well
I haven't managed to get straight VNC to work [yet]
My only other grievance so far is how often it pops up reminding me I don't have a support contract/license.
Looking forward to figuring out clustering

[15:03]

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[15:31]

m0unds

buddy of mine redeployed the mail architecture for a state's MLS mail system to proxmox clusters
they handle millions of mail messages a month for that system, and it was all previously run on a mix of ancient (10+ yr) servers with different OS' and configs and stuff

[15:44]

brycec

(Secret to a working Java console: start the VM first)
nice

[15:46]

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mercutio

is proxmox openvz?

[16:15]

m0unds

supports both vz and kvm iirc
m0unds hasn't ever used it

http://www.proxmox.com/proxmox-ve/features

[16:15]

brycec

yes mercutio it supports both kvm and vz

mercutio

ahh

brycec

(Taking a "right tool for the right job" approach)

mercutio

i wonder if kvm supports vga passthrough properly yet

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mercutio

that said, xen seems to be still under quite active development and does work

[16:17]

m0unds

xen still makes me cringe a little, but only because of past experiences with it

[16:17]

mercutio

i've found xen stable

[16:17]

m0unds

it might be now
certainly wasn't 5+ years ago

[16:18]

mercutio

it's cluster/distributed file systems, that i've found a nightmare
i've been using it for like 4 years i think
now kvm and xen are both sharing qemu code
which is a step in the right direction

[16:18]

brycec

I have another VPS hosted in Xen and it works well (minus the disk IO starvation)

mercutio

disk i/o starvation is based on storage system alone pretty much

brycec

and oversaturation with guests

m0unds

yep

mercutio

yeah they're probably using sata disks and piling too many people on
people get these strange ideas are 48gb of ram+ with 6 hard-disk raid 10
which 90 guests or something

m0unds

yeah

brycec

almost certainly - chunkhost is not known for being a "good" VPS provider

mercutio

so the disk tends to be the bottleneck, followed by cpu

m0unds

best, most consistent disk access i've seen on a VM was a provider using virtuozzo w/15krpm SAS disks

mercutio

never heard of it

brycec

mm nice

m0unds

extremely predictable

mercutio

depends on raid controller a bit too
any idea how many 15k disks?

m0unds

no idea, never asked - it's a client's box, i just manage services on it for them

mercutio

oh yip

[16:23]

m0unds

could probably open a ticket and ask

[16:23]

mercutio

15k 146gb disks aren't that expensive
but 146gb isn't very big
i think arp's doing 8xsata
but without lots of ram / guests

[16:23]

m0unds

we use 300GB savvio disks in our application servers here
15krpm

mercutio

2.5"?
or 3.5"?

m0unds

2.5
1u app servers

mercutio

expensive :)

m0unds

yep

mercutio

15k vs 10k makes a huge diff at 2.5" :(

m0unds

yeah
they're great disks

mercutio

heh
10k 2.5" disks aren't that bad
advantage of 2.5" disks is you can have a lot of them, and they use less power

m0unds

bulk storage (recorded video in this instance) is handled by 2TB seagate constellation disks

mercutio

es2?

m0unds

RAID6, LSI controllers w/BBUs
yeah

mercutio

not bad
not great :)
but they'd be a hell of a lot cheaper than those 2.5" drives

m0unds

doesn't need to be great for bulk storage of video

[16:27]

mercutio

haha just checking ebay
i thought some drives were good value, but they were 36gb

[16:27]

m0unds

we max out 120mbit/sec per storage node - recording subsystem writes out to disk every 30 seconds

[16:27]

mercutio

yeah even on ebay you're looking at $319 it looks like
per drive
megabit?

m0unds

we've got 600 ES.2's in service

mercutio

wow
do you have many fail?
what are rebuilds like?

m0unds

rebuilds are slllow
hahaha
i'll check our docs, i think we've had like 12 or 13 fail in 18 mos

mercutio

i dunno why ebay keeps linking me servers that have 3.5" drives

m0unds

18 mos since deployment completion, so they're all new
hahaha

mercutio

not bad
ebay's searching is terrible

m0unds

yeah, it's awful
i think it takes some annoying liberties with queries, grouping similar stuff
like you ask it for something specific, and it tries to provide results similar to what you asked but it does it badly
hahaha