#arpnetworks 2013-05-04,Sat

i'm going to use mine for cache, so one of those msata things woudl work just as well for me. not sure there's supermicro boards for "enterprise" with those features just yet
(referring to these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167040)
well, doesn't matter much tbh. if you have something that works, lets go with that.

[01:47]

up_the_irons

ok cool
what is the msata thing? :)
oh,, that link...
where the heck does that thing plug in? some PCI slot?? ;)

[01:52]

mercutio

they have a special slot for them normally i think

[02:01]

up_the_irons

cool

[02:02]

mercutio

$89 seems insanely cheap for a ssd
i wondered if US pricing was diff than NZ pricing by that much
but newegg doesn't seem to have anything like that pricing normally, maybe they were getting rid of old stock
actually last i knew msata pricing was attractive for really small sizes, 20gb, 30gb etc
hmm corsair force is cheap
i have no idea what they're like
oh it's refurbished

[02:02]

nesta

$20/mo for a dedi ?
did I read that right

[02:05]

mercutio

nesta: for a disk for a dedicated i think :)

[02:05]

nesta

o lol
nesta goes back to observing

[02:05]

jbergstroem

up_the_irons: ivy bridege has a designted thing for cache ssd's

[02:05]

mercutio

heh ocz has more reburshied than other people

[02:05]

up_the_irons

jbergstroem: ah

[02:06]

jbergstroem

up_the_irons: talk about expanding to server boards as well, haven't seen it yet

[02:07]

mercutio

jber: can't hotswap i imagine
they need little msata slots on the front or something

[02:07]

jbergstroem

up_the_irons: called SRT or something. basically helps you to create a transparent drive on semi-hw raid plus one cache ssd

[02:07]

mercutio

jber: only on windows isn't it?

[02:08]

jbergstroem

mercutio: no, i think its hardware based. i tried booting os x on one which worked but i didn't really need it so i went for a single ssd instead

[02:08]

mercutio

jber: oh, the help i meant

[02:08]

jbergstroem

can't say i trust it 100%

[02:08]

mercutio

it may passtrhough drive normally too

[02:09]

jbergstroem

mercutio: ah, yeah probably. there's a lot of software/drivers built around it

[02:09]

mercutio

it's evolving

[02:09]

jbergstroem

mercutio: actually, os x has "fusion drive" nowadays too. something similar. http://rochetechnology.com/quick-hackintosh-tip-create-a-fusion-drive/

[02:09]

mercutio

i'd rather see flash-based-write-cache controllers bulit into motherboards
with passthrough disks rather than hw raid

[02:09]

jbergstroem

mercutio: yeah. for sure. plus a small battery

[02:10]

mercutio

or capacitor
the idea about having flash is that you only need enough charge to write the memory contents to flash
and then the battery doesn't have to last forever

[02:10]

up_the_irons

jbergstroem: ah cool

[02:12]

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[02:13]

mercutio

hmm amazon seem cheaper than newegg for ssd's
i was thinking of trying to buy one from the US before if it would be cheaper...
still more than $89 though

[02:13]

jbergstroem

daym newegg for not shipping to aus/nz :(

[02:14]

mercutio

they do
err

[02:14]

jbergstroem

through third party ?

[02:15]

mercutio

well you can get delivery addresses in the US
that then send to you
they repackage things now
to keep prices down
cos some places use huge boxes etc :/
well nz has an easy to use service that isn't the cheapest
btu there are also international onces
it's still probably $10 to $20 for delivery even for something small like a ssd

[02:15]

jbergstroem

url?

[02:17]

mercutio

http://www.nzpost.co.nz/products-services/online-shopping/youshop?utm_source=home&utm_medium=midpage&utm_campaign=youshop
http://www.shipito.com/
i've never used any of thse'
http://www.kiwishipping.co.nz/

[02:21]

jbergstroem

ok thanks

[02:28]

mercutio

are you in au?

[02:28]

jbergstroem

yeah

[02:29]

mercutio

there's prob something local there
i assume demand is similar there

[02:29]

jbergstroem

last time i compared, it basically added up comparing to local companies. preferred giving them my monnies instead

[02:29]

mercutio

someone on local forum said shipito.com was expensive
you can easily pay > $200 USD for heavy things like servers
on various shipping things
but small things like ram/ssds/etc is where it probably could make more diff
although servers seem to cost a lot more in nz and au than the US

[02:30]

jbergstroem

everything is more expensive :(

[02:38]

mercutio

yeah
software is too :/
even if downloading over the internet

[02:47]

jbergstroem

btw, is it advised to run your own ntpd (i still do) even if you have a linux vm and run the kvm-clock tsc?
i guess it boils down to if the host runs ntpd or not?

[02:48]

mercutio

i don't think running openntpd locally should be a problem
but i have no idea if it's necessary or not
you could compare running it versus not, but ram usage isn't that high

[02:56]

jbergstroem

i compared at least 6 months ago, and localtime had drifted - so i installed openntpd (and nowadays run busybox-ntpd); but still, running ntpd if host already does is pointless.
(assuming you run kvm-clock)

[02:58]

mercutio

what's kvm-clock?

[02:59]

jbergstroem

its a driver for hte linux clock source
back in the days, people switched from the rc to a tsc from processors since it gave you a higher accuracy. kvm-clock is a way of getting hte host clock so the os doesn't have to keep track of this themselves
from the rtc, sorry

[02:59]

mercutio

hmm i wonder what openbsd does
i still don't quite understand what hpet does
but it seems hpet is the normal timer these days for modern os's?

[03:02]

jbergstroem

hpet is hardware timing, introduced in newer mobo's, replacing rtc
yep, its very reliable
but you can never avoid drift if you don't rely on ntp/clock protocols
pertty sure openbsd has support for both hpet and tsc
don't think it picks up kvm clock though. i just upgraded my 5.2 to 5.3 and still get unknown clock source

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mercutio

ahh
yeh old kvm version on most nodes

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nesta

hmm
up_the_irons: you around?

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brycec

up_the_irons: To answer your question - mSATA stuff plugs into mini PCIe slots, but it's not strictly PCIe and the slot has to support mSATA. It's found inside most laptops nowadays, and I think I've seen it on some recent Intel desktop motherboards. Generally, mSATA is what laptops use for SSDs given the chance (Apple and Chromebooks to name a couple) since it's smaller and lighter and you could probably still fit an old-fashioned hard ...
... drive too.
And I can vouch for the expense of shipping servers to NZ - My company's stuff is usually about 15lbs at shipping and costs the customer $300-$400USD for shipping (FedEx), plus duties. International shipping just sucks.
up_the_irons: btw I have a handful of those OCZ Agility3 120GB SSDs and so far they've all been fantastic! Been running them for about 18mos now and still going strong, and fast. Using them from everything - cache and log drives in ZFS pools, raid1 on my desktop (good lord the speed!), in the missus' gaming machine, and in most of my laptops.
Can't vouch for any of there more recent stuff (I know they changed controllers in the Agility 4, trading IOPS for throughput), but I'm happy.

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[12:28]

sean_

if anyone uses openbsd… don't upgrade to 5.3 on arpnetwork vps' … you won't have a good time.

[12:29]

CaZe

orly
What's the problem?

[12:30]

aslr

I use OpenBSD 5.3 on ArpNetworks and it's just fine?

[12:30]

CaZe

Did you disable mpbios?

[12:31]

sean_

hmm… em0 just doesn't want to work.
watchdog timeouts everywhere
if i can try to intercept the boot loader i'm going to try mpbios.

[12:31]

CaZe

I've had to disable mpbios since forever.
I don't know how you've been getting along without doing it.

[12:33]

sean_

(using console over ssh)
kvm page said it wasn't required anymore
this is maddening. :P

[12:33]

CaZe

Do you still have an old kernel that you can boot?

[12:35]

sean_

CaZe: do you use the vnc console interface? doesn't seem very useful.

[12:35]

CaZe

I use the console server.
I added a longer timeout to my boot script though.

[12:35]

sean_

sean_ CaZe: how did you do that?

[12:38]

CaZe

CaZe sean_: echo "set timesout 60" >> /etc/boot.conf
*timeout
But I think I was able to still make it in at the default timeout, if you time it right.

[12:39]

sean_

it seems the console doesn't connect fast enough.

[12:43]

CaZe

Maybe.
VNC should work though.

[12:43]

sean_

it swaps to com0
(sry after)

[12:43]

CaZe

set tty com0

[12:44]

sean_

if i power off from a console session the vnc session disconnects and it doesn't reconnect fast enough at power on.

[12:44]

CaZe

Can't you send a reboot through VNC?

[12:44]

sean_

just waiting now for config command to respond.
not sure.

[12:44]

CaZe

Well, do you have an old kernel you can boot?

[12:45]

sean_

u using 32 bit or 64bit kernel?
maaaaybe.

[12:45]

CaZe

64.
I'm using an old snpashot though.

[12:46]

sean_

ah. just tried upgrade to release.

[12:47]

CaZe

Well, try to get the timing right on the bootloader.
Or, just boot off the cd image.
(assuming you have an openbsd installer cd loaded)
Doesn't really matter which version installer.

[12:47]

sean_

yeah not sure. how can do you dhtat without access to the boo loader?

[12:48]

CaZe

You have to get in on VNC.

[12:51]

sean_

[12:51]

CaZe

Just have your vnc client ready to login, with you login and password already typed in.
And when you boot your VM from the console server, wait like five seconds before clicking connect on VNC.
Maybe less.
Maybe not at all, I dunno.
Play around with it.

[12:51]

sean_

mpbios seemed to do the trick… lying KVM bastards
blargh. didn't fix icmp issue from 5.2

[12:53]

CaZe

What ICMP issue?

[12:56]

sean_

with pf enabled icmp drops, every 1 of 25 echo requests are returned.
(that's with an empty pf.conf)
disable pf.. and it works just fine.
one of these days i'm going to buy another vps to collect the info for a sendbug.
i've had this VPS since 4.7 so could be infrastructure related as well (ie. old KVM, old VM template etc.)
CaZe: thank or the boot.conf idea. definitely popped that in.
sean_ CaZe: does your vps have the same pf behaviour with 5.3?
(using amd64 kernel)
(non mp)

[12:57]

CaZe

What is it again? It drops pings?

[13:07]

sean_

ping 174.136.100.18
Set pf debug logging… log fills with: /bsd: pf: icmp type 8 in wrong direction (1): ICMP out wire:
this happens from all over the internet so i'm pretty sure it's not just my devices. :P

[13:07]

CaZe

Well, my snapshot is from August.
100 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, 95.0% packet loss

[13:10]

sean_

sean_ to me I assume? :)

[13:11]

CaZe

Yes.

[13:11]

sean_

sean_ it's just ICMP.. all other IP traffic is perfectly fine which makes sense.

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[14:23]

phlux

who was complaining that i3 is 700kb yesterday?
because it's not true
ah, aslr

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[14:25]

aslr

How is it not true? I du -sh'd the src directory, phlux.

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[14:37]

phlux

maintainer claims it's mainly documentation that you're looking at
says the source is not 700kb

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mercutio

i3? ion3?

[16:10]

brycec

i3wm
.org

[16:16]

mercutio

is it a fork of ion?

[16:18]

brycec

Doesn't look like it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I3_(window_manager)

[16:19]

mercutio

they prob should have used a more differnt name then

[16:19]

brycec

may be in tribute to it? *shrug*
There was a lot of excitement over I3 a few months back

[16:20]

mercutio

hmm
i been using ion for over 10 years
so i suppose i'm not jumping at the chance to try other wm's
unless can see benefit
tried them all orig :/

[16:21]

brycec

benefit: Not writing config in LUA

[16:22]

mercutio

i don't do shit all lua, my config is simple
i don't even write a config, it writes it for me
but in the past i've changed some key bindings around
to execute different stuff
and that may or may not have involved lua
it is good to see more people getting into tiling window managers though

[16:22]

brycec

brycec sticks to using Awesome

[16:23]

mercutio

i found awesome meant constantly trying to rotate through different layouts
i prefer to just set layout myself
but i like they're using the new X stuff

[16:24]

brycec

Awesome isn't perfect :/ But I've made it work for me. Besides there's only a couple layouts I use consistently
Float, one of the tiling ones, and fullscreen

[16:25]

mercutio

i am quite enjoying urxvt
only problem is i still haven't got the best colour scheme
it actually feels faster than gnome-terminal
and doesn't flicker

[16:37]

staticsafe

flicker?

[16:39]

mercutio

xterm flickers

[16:39]

staticsafe

[16:39]

mercutio

when you scroll
gnome-terminal flickers white when you make new terminal
urxvt does neither of those
roxterm also goes white when you make new terminal
(i use dark background)
URxvt*background: #000229
have that as a background currently, it's like very dark blue
i suppose now my main issue is that ssh connectinos to remote hosts can be too slow to connect
i'm half tempted to use multiplexing which can speed it up, but can also mean they all die at once
it's partially cpu speed partially latency partially os
openbsd connects quicker than linux by about 2x for close hosts

[16:39]

staticsafe

O_o

[16:42]

mercutio

174 msce versus 279 msec, and the openbsd host is slower cpu
with faster connect
that's for ~10 msec away
it's 4.1 seconds to connect to uk host

[16:43]

brycec

#kiwiproblems

[16:43]

mercutio

heh

[16:43]

staticsafe

yep

[16:44]

mercutio

i dunno maybe something needs caching

[16:44]

staticsafe

DNS is the only thing you can cache here

[16:44]

mercutio

i remember a while back there was a https optimisation that chrome started doing that reduced one rtt
but broke some sites
dns is anycast should be fast
it seems now days anycast is the main way to speed up dns
but hardly anything seems to do anycast on reverse lookups
and lots of dodgy sites have slow dns
like if you do lookups on random ip's that connect to you uninvited

[16:44]

staticsafe

that might be where its slowing down, openssh does reverse lookups on connecting IPs

[16:45]

mercutio

yeah cache at remote end
but reverse dns isn't anycast
i wonder what ttl it has
86400

[16:46]

staticsafe

2607:5300:60:e3a::1 - do a reverse on that, how long does that take you?

[16:47]

mercutio

host 2607:5300:60:e3a::1 0.00s user 0.00s system 1% cpu 0.633 total
i'll try from somewehre else too
real0m1.795s
hmm
huge diff
both in nz
actually that may have been nameservers with 86400 ttl
i'm ahving problems finding the ttl using dig

[16:47]

staticsafe

that particular PTR has 1800 TTL

[16:49]

mercutio

ahh
try timing a host lookup on 202.49.67.22

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[16:49]

brycec

host 2607:5300:60:e3a::1 0.00s user 0.00s system 1% cpu 0.322 total

[16:50]

staticsafe

;; Query time: 633 msec - resolving via local recursor

[16:50]

brycec

host 202.49.67.22 0.00s user 0.00s system 1% cpu 0.462 total

[16:50]

mercutio

curious
bryce has faster dns :)

[16:50]

brycec

[16:50]

mercutio

that's actually interesting
static got same query time for my reverse lookup, as i got for his reverse lookup

[16:50]

brycec

(dnsmasq on my router, spread between Google's public DNS servers v4 and v6, as well has HE's DNS servers v4 and v6)

[16:51]

staticsafe

;; Query time: 0 msec - now its in my cache :)

[16:51]

mercutio

bryce: using all-servers?

[16:51]

brycec

lol staticsafe

[16:51]

staticsafe

I run my own DNS recursors

[16:51]

mercutio

ahh i used to do that

[16:51]

staticsafe

because why not :)

[16:51]

mercutio

using unbound?

[16:51]

staticsafe

BIND because i do authoritative as well

[16:51]

brycec

mercutio: yes, all-servers

[16:52]

mercutio

eww :/
brycec: that's what i shifted to doing at home

[16:52]

staticsafe

*shrug* I've taken a liking to BIND

[16:52]

mercutio

i wonder why that other server i tried took 1.7 seconds
probably didn't have cache of some steps before hand

[16:53]

staticsafe

yep
cold caches

[16:53]

mercutio

that's one of the reasons i don't run my own dns resolver

[16:53]

staticsafe

I find that pointing my home network towards my 2 resolvers builds up a nice cache :)

[16:54]

mercutio

i wonder how many qps before it makes sense? 20? 100? 200 ?
heh
i benchmarked heaps of dns resolvers before
then found that the way i was benchmarking didn't really measure real world performance
it's a kind of complex issue

[16:54]

staticsafe

http://stats.asininetech.com/asininetech.com/uriel.asininetech.com/bind9.html - this one is also my mail server, so lots of queries

[16:54]

mercutio

like no-one in nz probably looks up domains in ethiopia
so everyone will have slow lookups to there

[16:55]

staticsafe

yes

[16:55]

mercutio

but that doesn't matter
so if you randomly pick domain names
you'll probably find some international focused dns stuff will be faster than local stuff
but if you pick real usage domains, closer will be better
like facebook has a high chance of being cached

[16:55]

staticsafe

I originally started doing my own DNS because my ISP's one was so shit

[16:56]

mercutio

do you run web stats?
i see lots of spikes
heh

[16:56]

staticsafe

web stats?

[16:56]

mercutio

like looking up heaps of reverses
using webalyser or such

[16:57]

staticsafe

http://mx1.stats.staticsafe.ca/

[16:57]

mercutio

in a cron job

[16:57]

staticsafe

nope

[16:57]

mercutio

hmm
i wonder what the spikes are then

[16:57]

staticsafe

more e-mail

[16:57]

mercutio

ahh pflogsumm
wow you hardly have any rejections
my rejection rather is like 10x my received or something
s/rather/rate/
heh what'st htat SASL LOGIn thing
someone trying to brute force you?

[16:57]

staticsafe

yea noticed
not unusual

[16:59]

mercutio

oh actually my rejection rate went down a lot
still higher than yours

[16:59]

staticsafe

as you can see, its my mailing list e-mail, so not a lot of spam

[17:00]

mercutio

date received delivered deferred bounced rejected
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Apr 28 2013 957 675 109 7 9105
Apr 29 2013 1611 1116 199 20 5606
Apr 30 2013 3762 2557 175 1 1580

[17:00]

staticsafe

actually 0 spam from non-list sources

[17:01]

mercutio

it's kind of ireregular it seems

[17:01]

staticsafe

my reject count is unusual, its actually just greylisting

[17:02]

mercutio

oh
i use zen.spamhaus.org

[17:02]

staticsafe

which im thinking of disabling

[17:02]

mercutio

i don't greylist anymore
it's too annoying when you're waiting for a mail

[17:02]

staticsafe

yea i use postscreen with zen.spamhaus.org and some other black lists

[17:02]

mercutio

oh so it just doesn't reach postfix

[17:02]

staticsafe

yea
postscreen is <3

[17:02]

mercutio

but yeah, i dunno why apr 28 was so bad
and apr30 good
it won't do much harm, it's just one of those things i occassionally notice
i imagine peoelpe without zen.spamhaus.org get a lot more spam?

[17:03]

staticsafe

yea
zen kills a lot of stuff

[17:04]

mercutio

it's annoying how wasteful of resources mailing lists are
but as ssd's get cheaper etc i suppose people are likely to care less and less

[17:05]

staticsafe

amavisd-new takes care of the rest

[17:05]

mercutio

i'm using amavis too
and dkimproxy

[17:05]

staticsafe

I use opendkim for DKIM checking and signing

[17:06]

mercutio

and dcc, and razor, and pyzor etc.
i used to use dspam

[17:06]

staticsafe

I was thinking of dspam but meh

[17:06]

mercutio

i'm actually still getting some phishing coming through
i dunno dspam started going wrong
and amavis can't feed it anymore
it expires tokens
so if you stop feeding it stuff it goes weird
i think that was it

[17:06]

staticsafe

yea possibly

[17:07]

mercutio

it's obvious phishing stuff though
i dunno how to block it easily though
57444 N May 04 Kiwibank ( 254) Kiwibank internet banking customer support
51094 O Mar 11 ASB Bank ( 73) Hello ASB Customer
57338 O May 02 ASB Bank Limite ( 132) Irregular Activity On Your Account.
etc

[17:07]

staticsafe

i actually surprisingly little spam on even my main accounts
get*

[17:09]

mercutio

bank phishing seems popular
and fedex
and paypal
i'm not even using kiwibank or asb bank though
the real problem is that lots of bank email looks like spam too
with html and crap

[17:09]

staticsafe

heh

[17:10]

mercutio

sent from weird remote mail servers

[17:10]

staticsafe

my bank sends me 1 e-mail per month

[17:10]

mercutio

hmm so does mine
saying i should pay my credit card

[17:10]

staticsafe

heh

[17:11]

mercutio

it's even using domainkeys
and not coming from a dodgy looking server

[17:11]

staticsafe

yea banks usually do
I know Paypal uses it for sure

[17:11]

mercutio

lots don't use spf still
my one is now at least
but it's ~all
oh wow way more are since i last checked

[17:11]

staticsafe

i do -all on most of my domains

[17:12]

mercutio

hey the other two are using -all
why can't my bank!
wow only one bank i checked so far has no spf
the all the rest have -all except my bank

[17:12]

staticsafe

hah

[17:13]

mercutio

ok 2 don't have
anz and bnz
hangon maybe anz isn't a bank

[17:13]

staticsafe

rbc.com. 300 IN TXT "v=spf1 mx ip4:142.245.29.128/28 ip4:142.245.61.128/28 -all"

[17:13]

mercutio

oh it is it just sucks at google

[17:13]

staticsafe

[17:13]

mercutio

that your bank? nice

[17:14]

staticsafe

yea

[17:14]

mercutio

carribbean?

[17:14]

staticsafe

nope, royal bank of canada

[17:14]

mercutio

yeh it asked me what country i am in

[17:14]

staticsafe

they are international yea

[17:15]

mercutio

do tehy use windows or linux?

[17:15]

staticsafe

no idea

[17:15]

mercutio

curk tells me that they don't tell me what web server they run
and all their pages say .html :/

[17:15]

staticsafe

the online banking stuff is a CGI app

[17:16]

mercutio

ok
so probably unix
maybe solaris or aix or something
i'm always hesitant when i see aspx on a bank
maybe shouldn't worry so much

[17:16]

staticsafe

heh

[17:19]

mercutio

they may write their passwords down on paper and throw them in the trash for all i know
actually i haven't heard much in the way of bank security issues
ok i better go to supermarket before storm starts

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[17:46]

ideas1

New to bsd... which bsd is recommended to be used a webserver openbsd or freebsd?

[17:50]

easymac

Either one.
FreeBSD is probably easier for a newbie to get started though.

[17:50]

ideas1

Damn a friend just bought me a absolute openbsd 2nd edition...

[17:51]

easymac

Then just use that.
It's not *that* different.

[17:52]

ideas1

But i got the impression openbsd was more for routing

[17:52]

easymac

It does routing very well, but it does serving very well too
FreeBSD is meant more for serving, though, yes.

[17:52]

ideas1

Im a little confused coming from linux.

[17:55]

easymac

Linux is retarded.

[17:55]

ideas1

hahahha ouch i have like 6 servers at work alll rhel

[17:56]

easymac

I'm sorry that you pay for the ability to use free software.
lol

[17:56]

ideas1

lol the hostility

[17:56]

easymac

I gotta go eat dinner :) Good luck. FYI #FreeBSDHelp on EFNet is good.
I'm kidding around, but I do hate Linux.

[17:57]

ideas1

ok cool thank you

[17:57]

easymac

aha
ttyl

[17:57]

ideas1

thank you

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[18:00]

phlux

so I did some more customizing to i3's bar: http://www.phluxbox.com/img/air8ai.png
For the wireless network, it colors the essid based on the connection quality, and it does the same for battery percentage based on where it's at :)

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[18:53]

mercutio

thompson!
but that's kind of cool
your color scheme reeminds me of solarized
hmmm where it says mpd arist song name do you find it's often difficult with long artists / song names
or does it up more space to the left

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[19:08]

awyeah

Well, I'm doing it. I'm going back to hosting my own e-mail. Lord help me.

[19:08]

mercutio

hahaha
dkim, spf, domainkeys, amavis, dspam, spamassassin
so many complications :)
good luck

[19:08]

awyeah

heh.
Well... I'm just getting dspam set up now, looks like it includes vlamav.
clamav.
I do need to get the SPF records in

[19:09]

mercutio

i use clamav from amavisd-new
i don't find clamav hits much
but hitting anything is better than nothing

[19:09]

awyeah

true

[19:10]

phlux

mercutio: it uses up more space to the left
mercutio: it just depends on how long the artist/song is. If you don't want it to do that, though, you can use ${scroll 15 $mpd_artist - $mpd_title}
but I wasn't really a fan of how it scrolled

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[19:34]

mercutio

oh cool

[19:47]

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