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ChanServ sets mode: +o mhoran up_the_irons: whoa, lots of scrollback ***: Mexicainvexed has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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rith has quit IRC (Quit: EOF) brycec: You're welcome! (not that I had anything to do with it..) -: RandalSchwartz mutters "happy new year"
brycec yawns at 5pm RandalSchwartz: yeah - only 4pm here
but it's over the top for some folks ***: Mexicainvexed has joined #arpnetworks mercutio: it's been the new year for ages
over 13 hours :/ staticsafe: UTC is the only relevant time zone :P ***: dzup has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) mercutio: you mean gmt? staticsafe: UTC mercutio: isn't utc just a reference for other time zones
UTC was used beginning in the mid-twentieth century but became the official standard of world time on January 1, 1972.
oh i didn't know it being an official standard staticsafe: root@hellhound ~ # date -u
Tue Jan 1 00:04:55 UTC 2013
:) mercutio: # date -u
Tue Jan 1 00:06:02 UTC 2013
your click is behind
oh actually... i think they're about the same
i think my irc client is ahead staticsafe: all my servers are synced via NTP mercutio: most of mine arc
it seems the box i irc on isn't though RandalSchwartz: Tue Jan 1 00:07:35 UTC 2013 mercutio: my irc client +37 seconds to you phlux: Tue Jan 1 00:07:43 UTC 2013 RandalSchwartz: running ntp, so that should be close phlux: same mercutio: 2 seconds diff between you two
from my perspective RandalSchwartz: can't seem to run ntp on any box that has to be PCI compliant though mercutio: there of course can be latency between irc servers/connections RandalSchwartz: so instead I run ntpdate once a day.
dumb solution staticsafe: mercutio: yes indeed
RandalSchwartz: wtf RandalSchwartz: yeah - they keep flagging ntpd on freebsd as "bad"
so the only solution is to not run it mercutio: openntpd?
or that huge bloated one? RandalSchwartz: they just flat the open tcp port
flag mercutio: oh RandalSchwartz: so i've had to turn that off
idiots mercutio: does ntp use tcp? RandalSchwartz: UDP mercutio: oh i thought it may have a fallback like dns RandalSchwartz: but they apparently tweak it, and it comes back, so they say "you're bad"
idiots
PCI compliance is a joke mercutio: welcome to politics :) RandalSchwartz: but my $client has to pass, or not take credit cards from $bank mercutio: heh RandalSchwartz: some of the stuff makes sense
but there's a huge pile of WTFery mixed in mercutio: does anyone use the calculator key on keyboards? RandalSchwartz: I mean, yeah, not storing CVVs or unencrypted PANs, all good.
what's "The calculator key" mercutio: the picture of a calculator -: RandalSchwartz looks at his keyboard RandalSchwartz: I have none of those mercutio: it's on most modern keyboards RandalSchwartz: I have a very modern keyboard
macbook pro 17-inch mercutio: miune is where print screen would usually be :( RandalSchwartz: late 2011 or so mercutio: oh, laptops don't count RandalSchwartz: sure they o mercutio: they don't even have a number pad! RandalSchwartz: sure they do
it's just buried in the middle of the KB mercutio: my media controls are like that RandalSchwartz: .. https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3332788?start=0&tstart=0 staticsafe: O_o -: RandalSchwartz wanders off to drive home ***: Mexicainvexed has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) mike-burns: There are keyboards attached to computers that aren't laptops? mercutio: what?
you mean all in one?
like mac ?
imac
and amiga mike-burns: Hah, I dunno. I've only used laptops and servers for the past five or 10 years. mercutio: is macbook pro the g5 one?
really? RandalSchwartz: g5? mercutio: i have a laptop, i use it a few times a year
g5 cpu RandalSchwartz: my macbook pro is an i7 mercutio: oh that's powerbook RandalSchwartz: ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Pro mercutio: oh they never actually did it
i7s in laptops are usually i5s
renamed as i7s RandalSchwartz: no mercutio: and i5s i3s RandalSchwartz: real i7
the previous one I had was an i5
and I feel the difference mercutio: Intel Core i7-2620M @ 2.70GHz Average CPU Mark
Description: Socket: BGA1023, Clockspeed: 2.7 GHz, Turbo Speed: 3.4 GHz, No of Cores: 2 (2 logical cores per physical), Max TDP: 35 W
dualcore i7? :)
well that's cos i5 is i3 RandalSchwartz: I have 8 threads mercutio: really
wow RandalSchwartz: yes mercutio: which cpu?
this was early 2011 cpu RandalSchwartz: ... 2.4 GHz (2760QM) quad-core Intel Core i7 Sandy Bridge with 6 MB on-chip L3 cache
yes mercutio: oh cool RandalSchwartz: "MacBookPro8,3" mercutio: yeh it sucks how intel do that
oh
i7 normally has 8mb cache or more i think RandalSchwartz: actually - it says I have 2.5 ghz
so it's even better than that mercutio: oh heh
http://ark.intel.com/products/65719/ RandalSchwartz: and yes 8 MB L3 mercutio: desktop i7 is 3.5 ghz and 8mb cache
oh you have 8mb cache cool RandalSchwartz: this is according to system update mercutio: do you have hd4000 video?
my laptop is damn slow RandalSchwartz: AMD Radeon HD 6770M
and Intel HD Graphics 3000 mercutio: core2duo 2.4 ghz or something
with 4gb ram
and 8gb ram?
and the retina screen thingy? RandalSchwartz: no - looks like 1024MB for the first, and 512 for the second mercutio: oh RandalSchwartz: no retina screen
this wasn't from 2012 :) mercutio: i7 with 1.5gb ram?
ahh
so it's 1680x1050? RandalSchwartz: just 1920x1200 mercutio: oh cool
that's better than my laptop
i only have 1680x1050 :(
i like how apple are pushign resolutions up ***: Lefty has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) mercutio: at least it has dedicated video card :)
the new macs look ok
err mac laptops
oh
but they only take 8gb ram :(
Optional 16 GB RAM configuration available at time of purchase only
oh
they do take more RandalSchwartz: yeah I have mine baxed out mercutio: you jhust have to order it at time RandalSchwartz: maxxed out
at 8 mercutio: 16gb is standard for reasonably heavy users now
if buying new RandalSchwartz: I've never gotten up to all of that. mercutio: but laptops often only have two slots RandalSchwartz: I guess if you're running vm's or something mercutio: yeh that's cos you're using a laptop
8gb sticks are cheap for desktops now
you can have 32gig for prob USD $200? ***: Lefty has joined #arpnetworks mercutio: it makes a big diff to everything really. well, 16gb does compared to 6gb
that's why i upgraded from ddr2 to ddr3
but that means you have to replace cpu... motherboard.. etc to
too
i wonder how much these mac laptops cost
$3500
ouch RandalSchwartz: very price appropriate, given hardware features
no more "mac penalty" mercutio: desktops are a lot cheaper :) RandalSchwartz: sure, and have fewer things mercutio: more things you mean? mike-burns: Different purposes. mercutio: more expandability bigger monitors, bigger ssds etc RandalSchwartz: but if you price it out, feature for feature, mac hardware is very competitive mercutio: mike: depends if being used as a desktop too
yeh you can't get good screens on normal laptops
at least i haven't seen one recently RandalSchwartz: the trouble is that people tend to compare cheap crappy desktops against macs mercutio: macbook air is not too expensive RandalSchwartz: and yeah, so cheap crappy desktops are cheaper. duh. mercutio: cheap crappy?
i wonder how much my desktop is worth
it'd probably be $2000 or something
to replace every bit
probably slightly more than that
oh wow
it's easy to forget how much computers cost when you add things over time
like i got a good video card, so i can do high res...
which it does
but good video cards are still expensive
and even then i'm only sitting at 70 fps mike-burns: It's still slightly surprising to me how many different things people use computers for. RandalSchwartz: I use mine to heat my room mercutio: facebook?
google mike-burns: Like, how I'd never do someting that involves high res. mercutio: i realised the toher day, i never use my laptop without the internet
like if i didn't have internet for some reason, i'd think of my laptop as being useless
mike: reading pdfs? mike-burns: I use my phone for PDFs. mercutio: is your phone high res? mike-burns: Doubtful. mercutio: i have to scroll like mad on my phone to read pdfs. mike-burns: It's just more convenient on the metro. mercutio: my tablet is slightly better
metro? mike-burns: Tunnelbana. mercutio: train? mike-burns: Sure. mercutio: what are trains like for internet these days Lefty: yay, 1.5G of RAM makes for a happy VPS mercutio: heh my vps went from 256 to 768mb
but i'd prob be fine with 256 still Lefty: I went from 768 to 1.5
but I'm running a redis server, a mysql server, and a bunch of tmux mike-burns: The subway offers no wifi here. The only other train I take is the airport shuttle, and that does offer free wifi. mercutio: whereas my desktop swapped heavily on 6gb Lefty: all of those like moar RAM mercutio: that said, i don't use chrome on my vps
lefty: tmux isn't memory hungry Lefty: heh, I get cranky if my desktop has any less than 16 these days mercutio: but yeah the other two could be mike-burns: Web browsers take crazy amounts of RAM. I blame animated GIFs. Lefty: tmux consistently is the highest ram consumer on my box mercutio: i'm actually only using 8.4 gig on my desktop atm mike-burns: Is the tmux RAM measurement being reported properly? That is, is it instead reporting all the RAM of its child processes? mercutio: one chrome window on it's own is using 450mb Lefty: mike-burns: entirely possible mercutio: mike: it doens't report child processes normally?
at least not under openbsd or linux Lefty: I didn't look into it that deeply, but the box was usually a few hundred megs into swap most of the time mercutio: 14600 root 2 0 668K 1332K sleep kqread 0:00 0.00% tmux
PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE WAIT TIME CPU COMMAND
that doesn't seem memory hungry to me
13146 _mysql 2 0 40M 15M idle select 0:30 0.00% mysqld
mysql takes up a bit more Lefty: before I rebooted, it was reporting ~300M mercutio: that's light mysql usage though
wow
it's probably leaking then RandalSchwartz: mysql? friends don't let friends use mysql. mercutio: actually i'm using tmux on my irc Lefty: times four or so users mercutio: and it's been running ages
ben 16396 0.1 0.3 4572 2440 ? Ss 2012 7:58 tmux -2
that's linux instead that time RandalSchwartz: apparently, I'm not your friend yet. :) mercutio: 2.4 mb resident? mike-burns: I'm extremely pleased with the trend of ditching MySQL for Postgres. mercutio: i wonder how long it's been running RandalSchwartz: if you insist on mysql compatible, use mariadb
but otherwise, postgresql, yes
in either case, please move away from the oracle frankenserver mercutio: i was thinking the other day, mysql is terribly slow
surely their query optimisation could be a lot faster on modern computers?
err could lead to much faster performance
like current performance compared to ideal performance Lefty: mysql sucks on modern hardware mercutio: i imagine there's lots of complications of such
but like say you have 16gb ram Lefty: well, it sucked on old hardware too, it's just now modern hardware tends to have lots of cores and RAM mercutio: and 2gb database RandalSchwartz: mariadb is drop-in-completely-replacement for mysql
monty promises such mercutio: it doesn't really matter if you use 8gb of ram
and do things to reduce cpu bottlenecking etc RandalSchwartz: and it's better/stronger/faster
so absolutely no reason to run mysql. evar. mercutio: randal: mysql comes bundled with operating systems though? RandalSchwartz: apt-get is hard to type? mike-burns: Which OS bundles mysql? mercutio: does ubntu have maria now?
mike: ubuntu? mike-burns: Odd. RandalSchwartz: ... https://downloads.mariadb.org/mariadb/repositories/ mercutio: ubuntu, centos, openbsd, etc all have mysql support easily RandalSchwartz: serious, google
please don't make me google for you mike-burns: Is it useful for browsing the Web and, I dunno, whatever else Ubuntu users do? mercutio: it doesn't have my ubuntu version RandalSchwartz: which version of ubuntu?
hardy to precise mercutio: yeah i use quantal RandalSchwartz: yeah, be weird. get source then Lefty: no mariadb in my repos for 12.04 on arm mercutio: lefty: you have to get it from external repository Lefty: nor x86 mercutio: but that's why people use mysql Lefty: well, I still have to get mysql from an external repo mercutio: when it doesn't matter it's easier to use mysql Lefty: at least on our centos boxes mercutio: when it does matter then people are like "why should you use mariadb"
there was mariadb and another one that i was thinking about migrating to mike-burns: Postgres. mercutio: nah Lefty: my mysql usage at home is just a toy database mercutio: i've used postgresql in the past Lefty: at work, though, that's a different story... we do some heavy mysql scariness mercutio: but lots of people are more familiar with mysql Lefty: slaves of slaves of slaves mercutio: lefty: with redis? Lefty: in fact, the only alerts I've got for this on-call was mysql replication breaking RandalSchwartz: couchbase 2.0 looks pretty damn cool Lefty: mercutio: we use a lot of redis, too, and a lot of mongo mercutio: why does mysql insisit on using disk for queries anyway RandalSchwartz: materialized views mercutio: hmm wonder what one i looked at
percona RandalSchwartz: I may be deploying it for $client mercutio: i thik that was it
looking at wikipedia
so is mariadb a lot faster than mysql in common usage patterns? RandalSchwartz: monty claims so mercutio: but like 50% faster? RandalSchwartz: I. Don't. Know. mercutio: ahh
looks like most of the improvments only happen with 16+ cpu cores
and still 20% from worst to best Lefty: heh, that'd help our workload
the biggest problem with mysql replication is that slaves are entirely singlethreaded
so we can have giant boxes with lots of cores etc, and they don't get used at all
and replication still lags
I can't imagine maria is any better in that respect, so we'll probably stick with mysql mercutio: yeh i'm sure it'd help heavy heavy workloads Lefty: we have mysql boxes that are 16core mercutio: hmm, i didn't find anything about replication
can you do replication int he app?
the Lefty: yes, but nobody wants to touch it
it's very, very legacy mercutio: i was mostly wanting stupid web applications to go faster :/ Lefty: it's slowly being replaced by modern systems that use better storage technologies
though by "better" I'm using it in the loosest sense of the word mercutio: yeh Lefty: mongodb didn't get production-ready until 2.2
anything before that was fucked hard mercutio: fwiw in these benchmarks percona seems better than mariadb
at 2, 8, 16 cores
weirdly the difference is less at 32 cores
then percona is way way faster at 64 core
4200 versus 2600 tps Lefty: neat -: Lefty found out the other day that redis can't handle more than 32G of RAM allocated to it mercutio: heh
you must have a lot of data Lefty: we generate a lot of billing data mercutio: a while back i read about memcached not scaling Lefty: and the funny thing is that the billing group always says "oh, we'll only need a couple of gig of RAM", then they fire of a few million subscriptions and wonder why redis fell over
off, too mercutio: due to memory being way worse with random reads than linear
i think you're meant to use low latency memory if you want random queries Lefty: anything, really
I mean, I can't think of many workloads that consist of sequentially reading large amounts of data into RAM, then reading it right back out again RandalSchwartz: you don't know my clients. :) mercutio: oh i think it was the facebook discussion Lefty: I can see reading a lot of data, then accessing it randomly mercutio: lefty: blogs? -: Lefty shrugs mercutio: i also read at one point that l3 cache isn't a lot faster than memory
but has lower latency..
i assume cos cache is sram
it's like when memory went to sdram the peformance improvement wasn't that great
because the cpus couldn't make that good use for the burst memory speed
although that changed over time
curiously i was reading just now that facebook got better performance from shifting from tcp/ip to udp/ip.
i wonder how much better performance could be with infiniband Webhostbudd: infiniband is gimicky from what i heard
although definitely better than gige mercutio: what's gimicky about it?
it's significantly lower latency than 10 gigabit ethernet
it's also cheaper
especially if you want to go over 10 gigabit throughput
then it's got things like rdma to reduce overhead
whereas infiniband guarantees in order packet delivery Webhostbudd: well, i've heard 10gige performs better than 20gig infinibamd
however, i don't know the network layourt mercutio: infiniband native?
or doing ethernet emulation?