up_the_irons: sweet, time to splurge on some new electronics!  =)
jlgaddis: yeah srsly ;)
those HF radios are _not_ cheap
good thing xmas is coming up
heh
heh. support.arpnetworks.com/discusssions/... claims a 10mb file limit yet I just (in theory) uploaded a 13.3mb iso image ;-)
ever have one of those days where you wonder why the powers that be ever give you administrative rights on a network?   That was my day.
well you appear to be onlne...
I seem to be too young to have experienced this myself, but perhaps someone in here can explain..
How does USENET work? My Google foo is yet to lead me to some explanation
Also do arrangements need to be made similar to how the internet works ie: people pay for transit / premium usenet
That's not exactly on-topic.... But who cares :)
mnathani: In short, yes.
There are providers, who who massive server/storage farms, and they host USENET. They sync new articles among each-other, so they usually all have the same content
*who own
Some providers keep old content (called retention) longer than others.
And not all providers "carry" the same (much less, all of the) newgroups
brycec: err they don't usually all have the same content :)
they're meant to
otu of sync is common
err ar leats was
usenet is kind of dead now, i kind of wish it came back
Once upon a time, ISPs would often offer USENET/newsgroup access. This meant faster speeds for their users, and less b/w cost. (Think: caching proxy) However A) They rarely carried the binary newsgroups since those were enormous and usually filled with warez and other unsavoury material, and B) "nobody" uses USENET anymore.
Which leaves the big providers now (e.g. Astraweb/news()
it was really the 90s that usenet died
mercutio: I haven't had any out-of-sync issues lately... at least, nothing that wasn't sync w/in an hour or two.
oh you have nntp access now days?
last time i checked out usenet it was full of spam
i think the problem before was with the interconnections
mnathani: Nowadays, USENET continues to live on, but not for sharing news - those forums have generally been moved on to the Web. Instead, USENET is the #1 alternative to torrents.
like there could be gaps somehow
mercutio: ^
brycec: yeah, well binary usenet is blah
heh mercutio remembers when USENET actually had more people than spam... You've gotta be OLD
i'd prefer messages being on usenet or such than heaps of mailing lsits
(or forums)
forusm are even worse
aye
i hate forums
aye aye
mailing lists at leat you can sign up to and stick procmail on
but it's still more farting around than usenet
acutally
my main gripe with mailing lists is i want them to send me a few years of old posts sometimes
mnathani: hopefully that answered your query.
but that shouldnt' be terribly complicated to do.
brycec Kind of
i suppose some mail servers wont' liek that though :(
I am still confused how the content syncs regardless of which server it was uploaded on
ha
mnathani: magic.
mnathani: there are nntp sync daemons... but unless you're running a news server, you don't have to care about it.
like do some providers just transfer data 24/7 multiple times to other providers
Pretty much.
there has to be some kind of map
i think usenet is like fidonet?
Though, it's usually just new posts that get pushed to their peering partners.
to show who is upstream
and who peers with whom etc
you have a whole lot of noeds and leaf nodes
mnathani: Yeah, the providers peer with other providers... It's a big mesh.
can you get free usenet peering?
lmao... no
well, yes, sorta?
but its not like bittorrent where a partial file is sent to multiple nodes at the same time and by the time 1 unit of that file is transferred, everyone has it?
like say i wanted to start alt.vps
or something
also
I couldn't say, never been in the business of admin'ing a news server
say i wanted to start alt.vps
i meant
how would that be done?
I wanted to start alt.vps
there I said it
lol
and how do you make sure other people have it
is the protocol similar to SMTP in any way?
NNTP I mean
mercutio: As I understand it, you either ask a provider to start it, or host it yourself. If a provider starts it, it will usually trickle out to the others.
mnathani: extremely similar in many ways.
question becomes, what if I want to become a provider and start it myselft?
are there discussions on usenet anymore?
mercutio: in the case of hosting it yourself, you then need followers who would request their provider carry your feed.
mercutio: no. :p
it's all binaries now :)
(not literally... but that's all it's good for imho)
mnathani: $packagemanager install innd
http://www.giganews.com/peering.html
hmm
so where do people go to have internet conversations now?
mailing lists, forums, twitter, facebook, the loo...
oh, ans iex
*irc
it's not the same
*shrug*
http://www.aioe.org/index.php?how-to-setup-a-feed-with-aioeorg
fwiw, there are a couple of free-access news servers I use to supplement my Astranews connections, newszilla6.xs4all.nl and weathergirl-ipv6.tele2.net (both ipv6 only as I recall)
heh, that's pretty much what I described, aint it?\
(very nice walk-through though)
hmm
is slrn still the best reader to use?
tin was like the old one wasn't it
I've only used KNode recently, and that's because news:// was associated with it somehow (silly KDE). Before that, many years ago or so, I used Thunderbird.
oh?
i've never liked netscape
well it was the only newsreader I knew of at the time, and I was curious was nntp was all about
ahh yip
i wonder if slrn can use http proxy
ok got it
it loaded way faster than dialup used to load :)
wow there are binaries
you sound surprised
well it's free nntp
Dear user,  This group is not locally stored, but now due to your
request it is being downloaded. Articles should be available in a
ok that's lame
it had fetched some porn binary group
i suppose it depends what the users had requested already
a cache to a bigger site would seem more sensible
than this fetch group as reading thing
the one use of usenet that was not mentioned above is that some mailing lists are proxied into the usenet arena and some people actually post to mailing lists from newsgroups and/or read mailing lists from the newsgroups
I should enhance my rss2email perl program to also have an alter ego rss2usenet ..
yeh
i think i found one like that
this non instant thing bugs me though
well what you need to understand
is that usnenet is the internet modern incarnation of uucp
uucp -> unix to unix copy
err i meanhaving to read the message that says that messages will be pulled
various unix nodes did not have direct connectivity nor did they have continual connectivity
e-mail works fine for mailing lists...
yeh i used to use uucp for all my internet email
so there were various dialup connections established so data could be copied w/out calling long distance
static: you don't go back intime nicely though
so things eventually trickled from point a to point b
yeh
like i checked a post from NZ to NZ on usenet
and it was like 6 points
usenet is continually connected server farms still doing the uucp style store and forward
(and went out of the country)
hmm
you can consider usenet propogation delay slightly slower than mailing list propogation delay
that's not the problem
the problem is that the stupid nntp server i'm using doesn't subscribe to things
consider if you're at the tail end of a long list of people on a mailing list .. you'll not get instant email of course
until people read messaeg in that gruop
and it's pretty slow at gettign new stuff
and it's messy/clumsy to get it to realise there are new messages on the client
toddf: even if not the tail end but a very large list like linux-kernel
sounds like its a caching server instead of a host of sorts with a crontab to fetch news from groups people are interested in
anyway
it's "dnews" apparently
one application you may not realize is that 'if you eventually get your content' then thats awesome for things like .. traveling to space and inhabiting other planets
heh
Dear user,  This group is not locally stored, but now due to your
request it is being downloaded. Articles should be available in a
few minutes. To see a progress report you will have to re-read
hmm i wonder hwo to get slrn to reread
there is actually a sccs (space communications system) protocol you can use that is eerily like uucp with security and 4 dimentional coordinates for antenna pointing added .. (time + 3 dimentional location of satellites etc)
i heh tin is still availble
I used tin way back in the day
idk what you guys are talking about :( too young for this :p
staticsafe: well usenet kind of died when the internet went mainstream
that is true
like usenet was never really mainstraem
i've used usenet (only for binaries)
i used usenet via uucp for a bit
err
reai t
i don't think i actually have posted on usenet
i don't post that much in gneeral though
look for tfries@umr.edu .. I did a ton of stupid posts attempting to learn from the internet and even participated in some flame wars .. those were the days .. starting around 1994'ish
heh
you contributed to linux toddf ?
stupid posts >.>
for xt hard disk controllers :)
I modularized the xd driver, woot!
oh xt, sorry, bad memory
it's called xd
one of them ancient things I had back in the day. I may still have it, no clue if it works though heh
but the comment says for xt
oh boy, now we need to fix it, talk about years old bugs being fixed!
haha
oh you're an openbsd developer
yes, I got tired of trying to build linux back in 1998'ish timeframe and turns out 'cvs up && make build' is easy vs 'download individual packages and build your own build tree' .. I was hooked lined and sinkered from that point on.
heh
i start using openbsd in like 2001
well i played with it a little in 2000
which was like 2.9 or something?
hmm maybe 2.7 :)
the web will have better info than my brain at this hour of night at the end of a long week ... ;-)
heh
do you use openbsd as desktop toddf?
I'm just hoping up_the_irons manages to make an appearance and during said appearance manages to flip an iso image for my new vps ..
indeed I do
what window manager do you use?
wow...my first UNIX-like OS usage was Ubuntu 8.04
Wow, can anyone say Round Robin DNS? http://dns.winvive.com/propagate.php?Domain=news-out.nntp.giganews.com&QueryType=A
cwm ftw
>.>
<.<
staticsafe: how old are you?
$ xlsclients | grep xterm | wc -l
     172
mercutio: 19
haven't tried cwm
staticsafe: oh
i was 19 in 2001
it started out life as a 9wm clone
i think
yeh
i used to hop between twm and enlightenment
and now all the code is re-written .. you can do anything with the keyboard w/out a mouse and its quite minimalistic, I even have 1 pixel boarders on all my windows
until i found ion
is ion that tiling window manager?
yeh
if you can stand / and or work with tiles all day long you have to checkout spectrwm
I can't stand them thus I don't use it but those who do tend to like spectrwm ;-)
hmm every time i investigate other ones they're not as good as ion
like they'll try to automanage your windows
or other annoying things
I like KDE ;)
XFCE too
DE wise
i only have 1920x1200 resolution
i find that it's much easier when dealing with limited resolution to have tiling window manager
with tabbing
it's weird, back when ion came out nothing really compared
like twm was kind of similar speed
but had worse ui
and enlightenment was kind of better default ui but a bit slow
but even now when computers have got faster, alot of desktops can still feel sluggish
partially from finding where windows "hid"
at least with twm you could iconify
I'll try to notice when you report back how spectrwm works out for you. I've been asked to try it out, and promptly got tired of not having 80x25 terms unless I manually resize and decided tiling wm's were not for me
do you need 80x25?
i find 100 columns nicee
someday if I ever get the time I want to do a truly 3d window manager. not one that decorates windows in fancy 3d shadows and overlays and transparency. I mean all apps get displayed in a 3d space managed by the window manager. someday.
pretty much 100x30 is like basic working size for me
after that it can be nice to have extra
or things on the side
hmm
for irssi with 200 windows yeah I make a wide term. but for the rest, 80x25 seems usable, I maximize terms I code in usually, but then I shrink them as I move on to other distractions
i want a non window manager
err
i want somethin gthat filters/aligns information for me
from many sources
font of 5x7 is also my preference everywhere
where like i can put filters on stuff in real time etc
like i don't like having to type zcat blah.gz | grep ...
| less
blah blah
and then resize the window cos the input is too wide
i think the whole way at looking at things could be improved
rather than just have a new window manager
my brother pointed out to me the other day that openbsd's man page rendering is 80 coluns regardless of the size of the term. he's used to linux auto generating things based on the size of the term. probably has a point.
if you want your window to resize based on your input I bet thats doable.
if you want to write a 'smart less' that reformats and wraps output to match terminal widths thats quite another.
well i don't always
it's like when tcpdumping
sometimes i don't care about having as much width for all the timestamps and shit
urgle, you know you have too many packages installed when...
Filesystem     Size    Used   Avail Capacity  Mounted on
/dev/sd1e      9.8G    9.4G  -95.7M   101%    /usr/local
but don't want it to be too wdie
but lik
dynamic filters
where you can specify to munge input appropriately
and jump back to it would be col
todd: wow
what do you have in there? :)
what don't I have installed...
I've trialed a lot of stuff and I use openoffice and latex and java and firefox and test thunderbird and evolution .. name something big I probably have it installed
now I'm wondering if someone dropped a core or something because indeed that seems excessive to have filled that up even for me
thats after I just removed jdk-1.6.x since I have 1.7.x installed
time to cull the /var/db/pkg/.lib* subdirs
s/subdirs/packages/
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1160979
that says awesome is the most popular
for tiling window maangers
way more so than ion
but curiously openbox has more keen users than all of them
i assume openbox is a fork of fluxbox?
depends on if you are license sensitive. awesome = GPLv2+, spectrwm = BSD
i'm not that sensitive for a wm
but i didn't think much of awesome
i'm more concerned about license for base system stuff
irssi is gpl toddf  :)
find me something that is bsd licensed that works even remotely similar
gcc is gpl also
yeah
gcc i think is bigger issue myself
especially seeing it's gnu
gnu code is scary
hmm ircii is bsd
biggist dir in /usr/local is share/ and biggest dirs in there are untouchable ;-(
184300  gcompris
211162  gtk-doc
411636  doc
495968  locale
655720  icons
999934  texmf-dist
wtf
mv texmf-dist to remove?
remote
gtk-doc?!
actually just purge gtk-doc? :)
do you do gtk development?
it is populated by any gtk package that includes documentation
/var/db/pkg/atk-2.6.0/+CONTENTS:share/gtk-doc/html/atk/up.png
someone should teach them to share 'up.png' icons though
hmm
I have and expect to coninute to contribute to xombrero, originally a gtk2 now a gtk3  + webkit based browser
having 'devhelp' with fully populated docs really helps
# du -s /usr/local/share/* | sort -nr | head
39512   /usr/local/share/vim
vim is my biggest
21500   /usr/local/share/doc
10956   /usr/local/share/locale
9700    /usr/local/share/gettext
gettext?!
gah
i hate gettext
there's c code in there
 wc -l vasnprintf.c
    5568 vasnprintf.c
epic c code :/
without tabs
#  endif
# endif
#endif
and wtf is that
some people think C preprocessing is a programming language and it deserves its own style of indentation, of course!
it's gnu
it's hideous
# if NEED_PRINTF_LONG_DOUBLE
they have stuff like that
then the whole code block isn't indented
and the gaps on it
make it like the code isn't seperated out properly
like single blank line before the #if and after that #if
if the #if was condensed into the code block itd' be more obvious that code block was only used if that #if was being used
then go down a page and it's got the very same if need blah
which straight away suggests it needs modularisation
and maybe moer than one file
so that it's not 5000+ lines long
toddf: oh don't know if you noticed before, but beta-vm openbsd works with smp
beta-vm ?
err kvr276
-6
so kvm isn't as screwed with openbsd now
I had a beta vps until I roasted it and now with my home inet being unstable I've decided to not rely on home inet for serving various web pages (was backing afs cache from home to a http server at arpnetworks) .. so I converted my beta vps to a paid vps ..
I think what you mean is
mpbios is not screwing with uniprocessor kernels
no
mpbios is working
mpbios0 at bios0: Intel MP Specification 1.4
cpu0 at mainbus0: apid 0 (boot processor)
cpu1 at mainbus0: apid 1 (application processor)
etc
cpu0: QEMU Virtual CPU version 0.12.3, 2600.87 MHz
cpu1: QEMU Virtual CPU version 0.12.3, 2600.55 MHz
or are you saying I should have asked to test smp on the beta vps and failed to do so?
heh
i dunno maybe you can still get extra cpu?
or did the beta vps'en have multi cpus and I just didn't notice?
they don't by default
i dunno what policy is about smp in general
I do
$$ for additional cpus
just like $$ for more mem/disk/net
is it much/
I do not recall ever seeing the pricing
I just recall seeing the discussions on here randomly
ahh
i have benchmarks
not sure why its not officially advertised in the 'powerups' section but it does make reference to supporting multiple cpus in a couple of places
and i reckon that 2 cpu cores is prob enoguh
to be helpful without overkill when compilin gor such
cos you still have disk waits etc
compiling is not going to benifit a lot unless you use '-j2'
i did
i did straight -j2 and -j5
haven't tried with non smp kernel though
but with modern openbsd and rthreads you get multi cpu benifits from multithreaded apps (mysql) not just multiprocess apps (postgresql)
http://support.arpnetworks.com/kb/vps/why-does-my-vps-show-only-1-cpu
i mean i tried on non smp on my other vm
and my other vm was faster with straight make
 additional CPU cores for $2.00 USD / core / month. A total of 8 cores is supported.
We're sorry, but something went wrong
We've been notified about this issue and we'll take a look at it shortly.
it's still doing that
mnathani: hmm that's not too bad
mnathani: wow, nice. someday that should be listed in the powerups ;-)
although it's normal to be included in bigger plans
with other places
i wonder if diff people have diff priority
toddf: is there aio?
i hardly run any threaded apps
I asked earlier and the answer was no, 1 core no priority even with the bigger plans
i hardly do anything cpu itnesneive evne
well, if you look at the powerups page and such I actually traded memory for more disk space on my new vps (equivalent cost etc) so I'm sure the majority of people hosting at arpnetworks use 1 cpu or else it'd be different default ;-)
i've always figured that multiple cores will hbelp if you ever compress files ora ynthing
to not slow down other things running
is basically my way of looking at things
heh
aio is some lib wrapper with threads right? not sure that exists just yet, but with rthreads you get the separation of a process (can have blocking fd's in various threads) w/the behavior of a thread
i think mysql is the only threaded app i'm running
and it's not doing much anyway
hmm, something tells me I should go to bed and wait on my iso flipping for morning. ;-(
lots of times the benefits of threading can be achevied in other ways anyway
the only pause i hit regularly is if i do bgp feed
indeed
and type bgpctl show summary
it'll pause for ages
when loading new bgp routes
but if it just interjected every now and then
it'd allow that to work more promptly
learning lots of bgp routes tends to use a lot of cpu
for some reaosn
arp only has 100k routes though
until the new routers come in
and i think there are 3 people doing bgp :)
i notice it more on work machines
but it's when you lose a bgp peer that you want the summary :)
can't say that I've really played with bgp. suppored a couple routers for a short while but someone else set them up and I really didn't want to touch it for fear of breaking them. ;-(
heh
overall i find openbgpd pretty good
i just wish there was a linux version :)
vendor lockin!
heh
openbsd doesn't run under xen :(
well not well
it only takes someone who cares to make it domU capable at least
well I guess up_the_irons is not going to appear tonight. no worries, will need to wait until monday to have time to deal with the new vps properly anyway. cio.
later