***: sako has joined #arpnetworks
Ehtyar has quit IRC (Quit: Going!)
sako has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
k3asd has joined #arpnetworks up_the_irons: welcome k3asd k3asd: up_the_irons, thanks
how are you? up_the_irons: good, yourself?
just wondering, how did you come to find our channel? I plastered it on our vps page header today...
wondering if that worked
freebsd port updates, wee! k3asd: fine, thanks
I find the channel list on freenode and this interested me
I'm here a few days up_the_irons: ah cool k3asd: but I never opened my mouth :)
you vps prices are competitive up_the_irons: k3asd: yeah, i'd like to think so :)
competitive, but not stupidly cheap. I like to maintain a certain quality of service. :) Webhostbudd_: hahaha
stupidly cheap ones are awesome up_the_irons: maybe i should use that as a tagline Webhostbudd_: i kinda want to do an analysis of price vs reliability k3asd: up_the_irons, hahahahaah Webhostbudd_: lovevps offers some pretty stupid cheap prices and i've never had downtime, but i don't put critical stuff there up_the_irons: Webhostbudd_: i've been in this industry a long time; you get what u pay for, that's really what it comes down to k3asd: up_the_irons, in Italy, prices are higher and the quality is not always that you are looking for Webhostbudd_: then linode should give me some really good vps service lol up_the_irons: k3asd: i c ***: k3asd is now known as k3asd` up_the_irons: Webhostbudd_: well, Linode is pretty good from what I'v heard :) They also have a ton of features Webhostbudd_: up_the_irons: i've had too many outages with them, and im not a fan of their default images
up_the_irons, and pricing isn't grat up_the_irons: Webhostbudd_: o'rly, lots of outages?
Webhostbudd_: their pricing is pretty high nowadays, i would agree Webhostbudd_: up_the_irons: seems like my node always had problems, so im sure the experience varies up_the_irons: roger Webhostbudd_: i dunno, kvm always seemed better than xen anyway, and i can scratch my freebsd itch more easily on kvm k3asd`: up_the_irons, i c ? which means? Webhostbudd_: k3asd: i see? up_the_irons: k3asd`: "i see" k3asd`: ah, it's ok up_the_irons: Webhostbudd_: kvm rocks, hands down. xen had its day and was great ,but technology has moved on k3asd`: my english is funny :) up_the_irons: k3asd`: you are in italy? Webhostbudd_: up_the_irons: that's all i deploy anymore, i just wish i had a decent internet connection up_the_irons: Webhostbudd_: decent internet where? Webhostbudd_: well, im talking a hosting setup, namely symmetric upload/download speeds
but of course that would be considered a "business feature" if even available, and pricey as heck k3asd`: up_the_irons, live and work in Cagliari ( Sardinia ) up_the_irons: Webhostbudd_: ah right
k3asd`: cool k3asd`: I think we are a bit far away up_the_irons: k3asd`: what time is it over there? :) k3asd`: it's nineteen past ten am up_the_irons: good morning :) k3asd`: from you?
ahahahha thank you :D up_the_irons: :)
such a nice temperature outside now... this only happens like 2 months out of the year in SoCal mercutio: internet has come down in cost over the years Webhostbudd_: yea, but speeds haven't increased enough k3asd`: up_the_irons, here also reaches 40 degrees
is not beautiful :/ mercutio: webhost: how so? k3asd`: up_the_irons, we are you from? mercutio: 10 years ago i was on 128kbit Webhostbudd_: mercutio: i guess i am one of those people who wishes it was always faster mercutio: webhost: so do i :) Webhostbudd_: mercutio: pfft i was there 5 years ago
now im only on 5mbit
700kbit up mercutio: but from where things are now things are complicated.
ok
that's kind of slow
how much deos that cost? Webhostbudd_: $50/mo mercutio: ok
so you could get two of them
and bond them Webhostbudd_: I'm not sure you could actually do that mercutio: mm Webhostbudd_: with this provider mercutio: is that kind of internet speed common there? up_the_irons: k3asd`: Los Angeles Webhostbudd_: I have one possible choice for ISP, but not really up_the_irons: born and raised mercutio: so most people are much faster?
because i happened to be looking at mpd Webhostbudd_: mercutio: depends on where they live, some of them have access to verizon fios mercutio: which allows multilink ppp k3asd`: up_the_irons, cool :) mercutio: mm up_the_irons: :) mercutio: that's a lot faster isn't it? k3asd`: up_the_irons, is my dream go to Los Angeles mercutio: i want to setup bonding sometime heh Webhostbudd_: mercutio: it could be a lot faster, yea
mercutio: but you could pay for a really cheap, slow plan mercutio: oh?
can you resell dsl connections there? Webhostbudd_: no idea
not going to lie, this refund through google might have been the most painful refund process ever mercutio: hmm 5 megabit is adsl 1 ? Webhostbudd_: mercutio: not using asdl? mercutio: cable? Webhostbudd_: yup mercutio: docsis 1? :) Webhostbudd_: i have no idea but i wouldn't be all that surprised up_the_irons: k3asd`: you're not missing much ;) mercutio: you can prob tell by your modem
it may be docsis 2
it won't be docsis 3 Webhostbudd_: mercutio: im sure, but i don't have it on hand mercutio: but the upgrade paths are pretty smooth
it seems strange to have 5 megabit cable Webhostbudd_: i actually left that for my apartment now, and im advertised to get 30/30 Mbit speed
but im behind a nat router mercutio: joy :)
i hate nat Webhostbudd_: and with all of the other tenants the speeds become pretty abysmal mercutio: someone may be uploading too much Webhostbudd_: looking into comcast because they are really the only option here, although not great mercutio: even if you have symmetric net bittorrent or such can rape the connection Webhostbudd_: anything can really mercutio: yeh Webhostbudd_: i know plenty of people here who torrent mercutio: sfq can help
but bittorrent will go faster than other net Webhostbudd_: i have no idea what they are doing as far as QOS
but from what i can tell it might be doing more harm than help mercutio: well does it lag ot get packet lossy? Webhostbudd_: oh yea
youtube never buffers
voip dies frequently mercutio: it's probably red or wred
that may be connection limits
exhausting nat table Webhostbudd_: yea mercutio: mm Webhostbudd_: it's honestly a bad time mercutio: have you tried a gre tunnel? Webhostbudd_: nope mercutio: gre is connectionless / stateless
which might mean you can fix state beetween
but generally speaking Webhostbudd_: yea, im not going to mess around much mercutio: if you get >5% packet loss
you're going to have problems Webhostbudd_: it's not that bad mercutio: like ssh connections stuttering, web page loads halting
ok cool :) Webhostbudd_: it pisses me off, and i would rather have public ip's / ipv6, so comcast will hopefully do the trick mercutio: yeh Webhostbudd_: i already have a docsis3 ipv6 modem ***: sorressean has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) mercutio: docsis 3 isn't actually too bad
it's not as "fast" as fibre ***: sorressean has joined #arpnetworks Webhostbudd_: i just have to pay these bastards to flip the switch to turn the cable service on mercutio: but like
transit is usually what makes speed difference Webhostbudd_: i see mercutio: at those kinds of speeds
so it doesn't relaly matter
and existing cable can be used...
like docsis 3 can do bonding and do hhundreds of megabits
but that's basically multiple access profiles Webhostbudd_: nice mercutio: but i think per connnection it's like 60megabit+ anyway
the problem is
existing docsis 2 users slow docsis 3 users down
so every docsis 2 user that moves to docsis 3
frees up bandwidth and speeds up the net Webhostbudd_: consequence of having cable, shared transmission lines mercutio: soemtimes they hide these as free speed upgrade but you need a new modem.
yeah but it has to be shared somewhere anyway
you know when people kept saying that adsl used to use atm
and that was a shared pipe Webhostbudd_: mhmm mercutio: that could easily lead to congestion
because atm it'd be common to split the shared pipe
the old problem with cable was upload ocngestion k3asd`: up_the_irons, so so :) mercutio: but that's been improved a lot these days k3asd`: up_the_irons, arpnetworks are you society? mercutio: like when bittorrent etc first came out, they'd hardly provisioned enough upload bandwidth Webhostbudd_: it still has a ways to go unfortunately up_the_irons: k3asd`: it's my business, yeah mercutio: real? Webhostbudd_: i just appreciate that some companies are paving the way for things to improve mercutio: i dunno i've never used any amazingly-fast-net Webhostbudd_: mercutio: i really haven't either mercutio: there's just less slow and more slow Webhostbudd_: hahaha mercutio: i mean i've used by laptop on gigabit net
it still felt slower than my desktop on adsl. Webhostbudd_: unless you live in kansas city mercutio: sonic are doing gigabit i think?
that was at a data centre Webhostbudd_: dunno mercutio: but like seriously, it's way faster than dialup used to be Webhostbudd_: i won't disagree with thta
patches took ages
and dealing with a single phone line was pretty bad mercutio: patches?
i had two phone lines Webhostbudd_: games / operating systems mercutio: oh ok Webhostbudd_: i wish we had two phone lines mercutio: i didn't find patches that bad
well
os/2 was special
they made it so difficult to update
it got a little better
but i didn't upgrade as much back then up_the_irons: i still have my os/2 warp box and disks mercutio: up_the_irons: did you ever try tshell? up_the_irons: mercutio: no mercutio: there were a few kind of cool things like that around
there was another one that just simplied the wps
but like tshell made os/2 fast on 8mb ram
that was really the issue with os/2
it wast oo memory hungry for computers that were common
also ppp was way more complicated than windows Webhostbudd_: lol serenity systems still releases bew versions of os/2
wth
new versions* mercutio: webhost: tbh os/2 2.1 through 4 weren't that diff
i think i went back to 2.1 in the end
3 was generlaly considered the safe easy way to go
4 was like you had to update it with fixpacks to have minimal stability
and it was kind of just adding lots of crap Webhostbudd_: interesting mercutio: but 2.1 didn't come with tcp/ip
so you had to use that extra thingy Webhostbudd_: well, ecomstation 2.1 supports pretty recent firefox stuff
which is interesting mercutio: firefox? eww :) Webhostbudd_: i just can't believe someone develops it anymore
and claims they are profitable
who buys it
you must be stuck in a real mess if you still need os/2 machines around mercutio: i dunno
os/2 wasn't that bad
you should have seen the documentation
it's like OMG SO MANY BOOKS
but it has good references for every function call etc
quite different from windows
it was like an encyclopedia collection though Webhostbudd_: hahaha ***: Webhostbudd_ has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
heavysixer_ has joined #arpnetworks
ChanServ sets mode: +o heavysixer_
himuraken has quit IRC (*.net *.split)
heavysixer has quit IRC (*.net *.split)
heavysixer_ is now known as heavysixer k3asd`: up_the_irons, congratulations. I do a similar job
but in this moment I trying to find work in the UK ***: himuraken has joined #arpnetworks mercutio: freebsd is kind of scarily dated in places
like pf is YEARS behind easymac: That's scary?
There was talk of them branching PF away from OpenBSD anyway.
Not sure what the decision was.
.. or if there even was one mercutio: branching pf away? easymac: Yes. mercutio: what do you mean? easymac: I mean not tracking the OpenBSD source, rather maintaining their own codebase based on the older version of PF. mhoran: pf is pretty awesome, compared to iptables. mercutio: what! easymac: Obviously, yeah.
haha mercutio: they should sync up easymac: iptables is the most painful thing ever
mercutio: Why? mercutio: freebsd has already broken lots of things!
what's with this /etc/rc.d etc? easymac: What's wrong with /etc/rc.d ? mercutio: there's no reason to hold back if you're making radical cahnges anyway
well it's not /etc/rc.local easymac: You just contradicted yourself I think. mercutio: what i mean is that they're drastically changing things
in incompatible ways easymac: Incompatible with what? mercutio: that are more significant than the minor syntax change in pf easymac: I see no problem with drastic change where drastic change is due. mercutio: with standard /etc/rclocal
err /etc/rc.local
yeh
well it's ok to change/break things sometimes
so people have to update their configs
so they should just sync with current openbsd easymac: It's life with software.
Why?
I don't understand that. mercutio: because there are performance enhancements
and it's more flexible
and it means i don't have to screw around with the syntax when copying rules to freebsd
from openbsd.. easymac: I dunno, I guess it's a difference of opinion.
I don't feel each project has to be the union of all BSD projects. mercutio: what i actually find most annoying about freebsd is the lack of default config files. easymac: OpenBSD is far better than anything else as a network device, so let it do its job.
FreeBSD is far better for serving, so ...
I would actually prefer less overlap. mercutio: mm easymac: I hate when shit from one project is hacked into the other just for the sake of doing it. mercutio: well openbsd doesn't have netgraph easymac: It creates a mess. mercutio: and so mpd doesn't work on openbsd easymac: Yeah, there are exceptions, they're open source projects and one is far more popular than the other.
There are differences of opinions too, so there's natural disorganization among the projects. Their efforts are definitely not aligned to some greater goal as well as they should be. mercutio: hmm easymac: That's probably due to the problems FreeBSD folk have with Theo
Who knows... mercutio: yeh things are a little fragmented
l2tp support on unix in general is a bit behind easymac: But, in a perfect world, the two projects would work together to be more organized. Tools necessary for network devices would be pushed into OpenBSD land and tools required for serving in FreeBSD. There would naturally be overlap, which could be optimized too.
No such world exists, though. So, it is what it is. mercutio: openbsd needs to do smp for networking sometime easymac: Yeah, really.
I fully agree.
Also, ospfd shouldn't go completely insane when a new neighbor arrives.
haha
They also need to give you more than an on/off switch for routing daemons. It'd be nice to prioritize startups and whatnot.
I'd like my IGP converged before BGP starts advertising routes out my transit peers that don't rely on IGP. mercutio: is that openospfd?
or another? easymac: I use OpenOSPFd, yes. mercutio: openbgpd seems slow on freebsd for some reaosn
ie takes longer than openbsd to load full rout able
route table
openospfd port looked older than openbgpd
i'm using using bgp as IGP
have been since used to use quagga years back easymac: I just use OSPF to validate nexthops. mercutio: and quagga's ospf was too buggy easymac: I basically carry nothing in OSPF. mercutio: ahh ok easymac: Everything should be BGP, it actually scales.
haha mercutio: i was kind of idlely curious if i could load balance outgoing routes in freebsd
have you ever tried bird? easymac: Nah, never. I've had good luck with OpenBSD and I hate fiddling with things until they work. I just want it to work out of the box. mercutio: ahh yip
i just tried it the other day on linux
not advertising any routes
it's more confusing than openbgpd to me easymac: haha mercutio: but it seems preferable to quagga easymac: Static routing seems preferable to quagga mercutio: hahaha
it's gross easymac: That's gotta be the must annoying piece of software on Earth, aside from Microsoft Word. mercutio: well zebra was bad too easymac: Truth is, I'd ditch all this shit in two seconds if my company would cough up the money for some Juniper hardware. mercutio: heh easymac: I might use it on our private networks, MIS, corporate, etc... But I'd love Juniper in the backbone. mercutio: mm both transit links that i use openbgpd with are on juniper gear easymac: Wouldn't waste the money on doing Juniper routers for offices and stuff.
Free or Open could handle that type of networking easily. mercutio: they seem pretty common here
both providers are using mx480s
i don't think mx480s are cheap easymac: No, I'm sure they're not.
Not much (that's worth buying) in the MX line is cheap mercutio: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Juniper-MX480-PREMIUM-DC-Base-system-with-redundant-RE-2000-SCB-DC-Power-/251131667989?pt=US_Enterprise_Routers&hash=item3a789d2615
hmm $35k usd easymac: Doesn't Juniper refuse to support hardware that was sold like that?
Err hardware that changed hands, I guess mercutio: not sure
but it gives an idea on price
it's not like they're likely to list any prices online easymac: Yeah.
You could always look on CDW or something, and divide in half.
haha mercutio: it's basically the same ast hat calculation
maybe slightly more that way
never heard of cdw easymac: They're big in the US.
Expensive, but reliable type of thing. mercutio: ahh
i'm in new zealand easymac: I see, yeah, I know nothing about what's out there. mercutio: hmm easymac: Except hobbits and the like.
:) mercutio: heh
i think for isp type people juniper are very common here
for corporate type people cisco are very common easymac: Same here and probably everywhere. mercutio: heh
brocade are more common there than here i think
and extreme networks etc easymac: Yeah, in the past few years I've heard lots of chatter about them, but I've never come across one in any of my work experience. mercutio: hmm easymac: Generally Cisco, Juniper or BSD.
Much less BSD than the others. mercutio: an open source router would be kind of cool
with asic forwarding easymac: Only a matter of time. mercutio: but the software is so far behind in those regards.
yeah when i shifted to openbgpd i didn't know anyone running openbsd at all
i inherited zebra/quagga network.
and for some reason it'd fuck up really badly sometimes :/ up_the_irons: i thought vyatta was somewhat an open source router with asic forwarding (granted, probably not a lot of routes, but something) mercutio: vyatta is pretty new easymac: A friend of mine did quite a bit of work making FreeBSD route fast for use in OCCAID, so I heard of him doing crazy shit with BSD for routing, but otherwise, I knew of nobody doing it. mercutio: they do software for base machines i know
but they probably have a hardware offering. no idea about asic forwarding up_the_irons: easymac: is your friend named dima? sounds like a guy i know... easymac: blahdy up_the_irons: i c
i've heard some good things about brocade; not so much with extreme, but i even have an extreme running on the tier-2 network side (and it's pretty bad ass)
the extreme guys (on the phone) were pretty cool actually, very helpful mercutio: hmm up_the_irons: they hooked me up with a VAR that had killer pricing, better than anything i found online, anywhere mercutio: cool
buying online seems a bit weird for supported products easymac: I wanna go to NANOG, but I don't think I can. mercutio: have you been before? easymac: Nope ***: Webhostbudd has joined #arpnetworks
mnathani has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
mnathani has joined #arpnetworks
Webhostbudd has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
loksibom has joined #arpnetworks
loksibom has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
dferris has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
dferris has joined #arpnetworks
sako has joined #arpnetworks
toddf has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
toddf has joined #arpnetworks
ChanServ sets mode: +o toddf
arenlor has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
arenlor has joined #arpnetworks
gcw|mbpro has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
gcw|mbpro has joined #arpnetworks
beandog has joined #arpnetworks
beandog has quit IRC (Changing host)
beandog has joined #arpnetworks
sako has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out)
gcw|mbpro has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
sako has joined #arpnetworks
sorressean has left
sako has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
sako has joined #arpnetworks
mike-burns has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
nestea has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
phlux has quit IRC (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
teneightypea has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
up_the_irons has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
bGeorge has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
teneightypea has joined #arpnetworks
sako_ has joined #arpnetworks
sako has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
antennageek has joined #arpnetworks
antennageek is now known as niner
up_the_irons has joined #arpnetworks
ChanServ sets mode: +o up_the_irons up_the_irons: wee jdoe: no.
this is a serious channel.
for serious business.
you keep that shit in line. niner: note to self: don't mess with people that handle my food, my paycheck, or the VM host for my VPS.
wee all you like, good sir.
.... that sounds wrong. up_the_irons: lol jdoe: yeah lil bit. ***: bGeorge has joined #arpnetworks
nestea has joined #arpnetworks
mike-burns has joined #arpnetworks
ChanServ sets mode: +o mike-burns dr_jkl: &%@$, I say. -: dr_jkl dropped her phone in a cup of soda kraigu: up_the_irons, jdoe - damnit, now I have to pee. sako_: I was going to spin up a new box on ARPNetworks but the [FBI] idles here, f that noise.
just kidding.. just kidding.. ***: Webhostbudd has joined #arpnetworks up_the_irons: sako_: hah ***: phlux has joined #arpnetworks
beandog has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
gcw|mbpro has joined #arpnetworks
niner has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
gcw|mbpro has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
gcw|mbpro has joined #arpnetworks
sako_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
gcw|mbpro has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
gcw|mbpro has joined #arpnetworks
Ehtyar has joined #arpnetworks
mike-burns has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
mike-burns has joined #arpnetworks
ChanServ sets mode: +o mike-burns
himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
himuraken has joined #arpnetworks
himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
himuraken has joined #arpnetworks
himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
himuraken has joined #arpnetworks
himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
himuraken has joined #arpnetworks
himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
himuraken has joined #arpnetworks
himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
sako has joined #arpnetworks
himuraken has joined #arpnetworks
himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
himuraken has joined #arpnetworks
sako has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
himuraken has joined #arpnetworks
himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
himuraken has joined #arpnetworks
sako has joined #arpnetworks
mike-burns has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
mike-burns has joined #arpnetworks
ChanServ sets mode: +o mike-burns
slosldd has joined #arpnetworks
himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)