welcome k3asd
up_the_irons, thanks
how are you?
good, yourself?
just wondering, how did you come to find our channel?  I plastered it on our vps page header today...
wondering if that worked
freebsd port updates, wee!
fine, thanks
I find the channel list on freenode and this interested me
I'm here a few days
ah cool
but I never opened my mouth :)
you vps prices are competitive
k3asd: yeah, i'd like to think so :)
competitive, but not stupidly cheap.  I like to maintain a certain quality of service. :)
hahaha
stupidly cheap ones are awesome
maybe i should use that as a tagline
i kinda want to do an analysis of price vs reliability
up_the_irons, hahahahaah
lovevps offers some pretty stupid cheap prices and i've never had downtime, but i don't put critical stuff there
Webhostbudd_: i've been in this industry a long time; you get what u pay for, that's really what it comes down to
up_the_irons, in Italy, prices are higher and the quality is not always that you are looking for
then linode should give me some really good vps service lol
k3asd: i c
Webhostbudd_: well, Linode is pretty good from what I'v heard :)  They also have a ton of features
up_the_irons: i've had too many outages with them, and im not a fan of their default images
up_the_irons, and pricing isn't grat
Webhostbudd_: o'rly, lots of outages?
Webhostbudd_: their pricing is pretty high nowadays, i would agree
up_the_irons: seems like my node always had problems, so im sure the experience varies
roger
i dunno, kvm always seemed better than xen anyway, and i can scratch my freebsd itch more easily on kvm
up_the_irons, i c ? which means?
k3asd: i see?
k3asd`: "i see"
ah, it's ok
Webhostbudd_: kvm rocks, hands down.  xen had its day and was great ,but technology has moved on
my english is funny :)
k3asd`: you are in italy?
up_the_irons: that's all i deploy anymore, i just wish i had a decent internet connection
Webhostbudd_: decent internet where?
well, im talking a hosting setup, namely symmetric upload/download speeds
but of course that would be considered a "business feature" if even available, and pricey as heck
up_the_irons, live and work in Cagliari ( Sardinia )
Webhostbudd_: ah right
k3asd`: cool
I think we are a bit far away
k3asd`: what time is it over there? :)
it's nineteen past ten am
good morning :)
from you?
ahahahha thank you :D
:)
such a nice temperature outside now... this only happens like 2 months out of the year in SoCal
internet has come down in cost over the years
yea, but speeds haven't increased enough
up_the_irons, here also reaches 40 degrees
is not beautiful :/
webhost: how so?
up_the_irons, we are you from?
10 years ago i was on 128kbit
mercutio: i guess i am one of those people who wishes it was always faster
webhost: so do i :)
mercutio: pfft i was there 5 years ago
now im only on 5mbit
700kbit up
but from where things are now things are complicated.
ok
that's kind of slow
how much deos that cost?
$50/mo
ok
so you could get two of them
and bond them
I'm not sure you could actually do that
mm
with this provider
is that kind of internet speed common there?
k3asd`: Los Angeles
I have one possible choice for ISP, but not really
born and raised
so most people are much faster?
because i happened to be looking at mpd
mercutio: depends on where they live, some of them have access to verizon fios
which allows multilink ppp
up_the_irons, cool :)
mm
:)
that's a lot faster isn't it?
up_the_irons, is my dream go to Los Angeles
i want to setup bonding sometime heh
mercutio: it could be a lot faster, yea
mercutio: but you could pay for a really cheap, slow plan
oh?
can you resell dsl connections  there?
no idea
not going to lie, this refund through google might have been the most painful refund process ever
hmm 5 megabit is adsl 1 ?
mercutio: not using asdl?
cable?
yup
docsis 1? :)
i have no idea but i wouldn't be all that surprised
k3asd`: you're not missing much ;)
you can prob tell by your modem
it may be docsis 2
it won't be docsis 3
mercutio: im sure, but i don't have it on hand
but the upgrade paths are pretty smooth
it seems strange to have 5 megabit cable
i actually left that for my apartment now, and im advertised to get 30/30 Mbit speed
but im behind a nat router
joy :)
i hate nat
and with all of the other tenants the speeds become pretty abysmal
someone may be uploading too much
looking into comcast because they are really the only option here, although not great
even if you have symmetric net bittorrent or such can rape the connection
anything can really
yeh
i know plenty of people here who torrent
sfq can help
but bittorrent will go faster than other net
i have no idea what they are doing as far as QOS
but from what i can tell it might be doing more harm than help
well does it lag ot get packet lossy?
oh yea
youtube never buffers
voip dies frequently
it's probably red or wred
that may be connection limits
exhausting nat table
yea
mm
it's honestly a bad time
have you tried a gre tunnel?
nope
gre is connectionless / stateless
which might mean you can fix state beetween
but generally speaking
yea, im not going to mess around much
if you get >5% packet loss
you're going to have problems
it's not that bad
like ssh connections stuttering, web page loads halting
ok cool :)
it pisses me off, and i would rather have public ip's / ipv6, so comcast will hopefully do the trick
yeh
i already have a docsis3 ipv6 modem
docsis 3 isn't actually too bad
it's not as "fast" as fibre
i just have to pay these bastards to flip the switch to turn the cable service on
but like
transit is usually what makes speed difference
i see
at those kinds of speeds
so it doesn't relaly matter
and existing cable can be used...
like docsis 3 can do bonding and do hhundreds of megabits
but that's basically multiple access profiles
nice
but i think per connnection it's like 60megabit+ anyway
the problem is
existing docsis 2 users slow docsis 3 users down
so every docsis 2 user that moves to docsis 3
frees up bandwidth and speeds up the net
consequence of having cable, shared transmission lines
soemtimes they hide these as free speed upgrade but you need a new modem.
yeah but it has to be shared somewhere anyway
you know when people kept saying that adsl used to use atm
and that was a shared pipe
mhmm
that could easily lead to congestion
because atm it'd be common to split the shared pipe
the old problem with cable was upload ocngestion
up_the_irons, so so :)
but that's been improved a lot these days
up_the_irons, arpnetworks are you society?
like when bittorrent etc first came out, they'd hardly provisioned enough upload bandwidth
it still has a ways to go unfortunately
k3asd`: it's my business, yeah
real?
i just appreciate that some companies are paving the way for things to improve
i dunno i've never used any amazingly-fast-net
mercutio: i really haven't either
there's just less slow and more slow
hahaha
i mean i've used by laptop on gigabit net
it still felt slower than my desktop on adsl.
unless you live in kansas city
sonic are doing gigabit i think?
that was at a data centre
dunno
but like seriously, it's way faster than dialup used to be
i won't disagree with thta
patches took ages
and dealing with a single phone line was pretty bad
patches?
i had two phone lines
games / operating systems
oh ok
i wish we had two phone lines
i didn't find patches that bad
well
os/2 was special
they made it so difficult to update
it got a little better
but i didn't upgrade as much back then
i still have my os/2 warp box and disks
up_the_irons: did you ever try tshell?
mercutio: no
there were a few kind of cool things like that around
there was another one that just simplied the wps
but like tshell made os/2 fast on 8mb ram
that was really the issue with os/2
it wast oo memory hungry for computers that were common
also ppp was way more complicated than windows
lol serenity systems still releases bew versions of os/2
wth
new versions*
webhost: tbh os/2 2.1 through 4 weren't that diff
i think i went back to 2.1 in the end
3 was generlaly considered the safe easy way to go
4 was like you had to update it with fixpacks to have minimal stability
and it was kind of just adding lots of crap
interesting
but 2.1 didn't come with tcp/ip
so you had to use that extra thingy
well, ecomstation 2.1 supports pretty recent firefox stuff
which is interesting
firefox?  eww :)
i just can't believe someone develops it anymore
and claims they are profitable
who buys it
you must be stuck in a real mess if you still need os/2 machines around
i dunno
os/2 wasn't that bad
you should have seen the documentation
it's like OMG SO MANY BOOKS
but it has good references for every function call etc
quite different from windows
it was like an encyclopedia collection though
hahaha
up_the_irons, congratulations. I do a similar job
but in this moment I trying to find work in the UK
freebsd is kind of scarily dated in places
like pf is YEARS behind
That's scary?
There was talk of them branching PF away from OpenBSD anyway.
Not sure what the decision was.
.. or if there even was one
branching pf away?
Yes.
what do you mean?
I mean not tracking the OpenBSD source, rather maintaining their own codebase based on the older version of PF.
pf is pretty awesome, compared to iptables.
what!
Obviously, yeah.
haha
they should sync up
iptables is the most painful thing ever
mercutio: Why?
freebsd has already broken lots of things!
what's with this /etc/rc.d etc?
What's wrong with /etc/rc.d ?
there's no reason to hold back if you're making radical cahnges anyway
well it's not /etc/rc.local
You just contradicted yourself I think.
what i mean is that they're drastically changing things
in incompatible ways
Incompatible with what?
that are more significant than the minor syntax change in pf
I see no problem with drastic change where drastic change is due.
with standard /etc/rclocal
err /etc/rc.local
yeh
well it's ok to change/break things sometimes
so people have to update their configs
so they should just sync with current openbsd
It's life with software.
Why?
I don't understand that.
because there are performance enhancements
and it's more flexible
and it means i don't have to screw around with the syntax when copying rules to freebsd
from openbsd..
I dunno, I guess it's a difference of opinion.
I don't feel each project has to be the union of all BSD projects.
what i actually find most annoying about freebsd is the lack of default config files.
OpenBSD is far better than anything else as a network device, so let it do its job.
FreeBSD is far better for serving, so ...
I would actually prefer less overlap.
mm
I hate when shit from one project is hacked into the other just for the sake of doing it.
well openbsd doesn't have netgraph
It creates a mess.
and so mpd doesn't work on openbsd
Yeah, there are exceptions, they're open source projects and one is far more popular than the other.
There are differences of opinions too, so there's natural disorganization among the projects.  Their efforts are definitely not aligned to some greater goal as well as they should be.
hmm
That's probably due to the problems FreeBSD folk have with Theo
Who knows...
yeh things are a little fragmented
l2tp support on unix in general is a bit behind
But, in a perfect world, the two projects would work together to be more organized. Tools necessary for network devices would be pushed into OpenBSD land and tools required for serving in FreeBSD. There would naturally be overlap, which could be optimized too.
No such world exists, though. So, it is what it is.
openbsd needs to do smp for networking sometime
Yeah, really.
I fully agree.
Also, ospfd shouldn't go completely insane when a new neighbor arrives.
haha
They also need to give you more than an on/off switch for routing daemons.  It'd be nice to prioritize startups and whatnot.
I'd like my IGP converged before BGP starts advertising routes out my transit peers that don't rely on IGP.
is that openospfd?
or another?
I use OpenOSPFd, yes.
openbgpd seems slow on freebsd for some reaosn
ie takes longer than openbsd to load full rout able
route table
openospfd port looked older than openbgpd
i'm using using bgp as IGP
have been since used to use quagga years back
I just use OSPF to validate nexthops.
and quagga's ospf was too buggy
I basically carry nothing in OSPF.
ahh ok
Everything should be BGP, it actually scales.
haha
i was kind of idlely curious if i could load balance outgoing routes in freebsd
have you ever tried bird?
Nah, never. I've had good luck with OpenBSD and I hate fiddling with things until they work. I just want it to work out of the box.
ahh yip
i just tried it the other day on linux
not advertising any routes
it's more confusing than openbgpd to me
haha
but it seems preferable to quagga
Static routing seems preferable to quagga
hahaha
it's gross
That's gotta be the must annoying piece of software on Earth, aside from Microsoft Word.
well zebra was bad too
Truth is, I'd ditch all this shit in two seconds if my company would cough up the money for some Juniper hardware.
heh
I might use it on our private networks, MIS, corporate, etc...  But I'd love Juniper in the backbone.
mm both transit links that i use openbgpd with are on juniper gear
Wouldn't waste the money on doing Juniper routers for offices and stuff.
Free or Open could handle that type of networking easily.
they seem pretty common here
both providers are using mx480s
i don't think mx480s are cheap
No, I'm sure they're not.
Not much (that's worth buying) in the MX line is cheap
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Juniper-MX480-PREMIUM-DC-Base-system-with-redundant-RE-2000-SCB-DC-Power-/251131667989?pt=US_Enterprise_Routers&hash=item3a789d2615
hmm  $35k usd
Doesn't Juniper refuse to support hardware that was sold like that?
Err hardware that changed hands, I guess
not sure
but it gives an idea on price
it's not like they're likely to list any prices online
Yeah.
You could always look on CDW or something, and divide in half.
haha
it's basically the same ast hat calculation
maybe slightly more that way
never heard of cdw
They're big in the US.
Expensive, but reliable type of thing.
ahh
i'm in new zealand
I see, yeah, I know nothing about what's out there.
hmm
Except hobbits and the like.
:)
heh
i think for isp type people juniper are very common here
for corporate type people cisco are very common
Same here and probably everywhere.
heh
brocade are more common there than here i think
and extreme networks etc
Yeah, in the past few years I've heard lots of chatter about them, but I've never come across one in any of my work experience.
hmm
Generally Cisco, Juniper or BSD.
Much less BSD than the others.
an open source router would be kind of cool
with asic forwarding
Only a matter of time.
but the software is so far behind in those regards.
yeah when i shifted to openbgpd i didn't know anyone running openbsd at all
i inherited zebra/quagga network.
and for some reason it'd fuck up really badly sometimes :/
i thought vyatta was somewhat an open source router with asic forwarding (granted, probably not a lot of routes, but something)
vyatta is pretty new
A friend of mine did quite a bit of work making FreeBSD route fast for use in OCCAID, so I heard of him doing crazy shit with BSD for routing, but otherwise, I knew of nobody doing it.
they do software for base machines i know
but they probably have a hardware offering.  no idea about asic forwarding
easymac: is your friend named dima?  sounds like a guy i know...
blahdy
i c
i've heard some good things about brocade; not so much with extreme, but i even have an extreme running on the tier-2 network side (and it's pretty bad ass)
the extreme guys (on the phone) were pretty cool actually, very helpful
hmm
they hooked me up with a VAR that had killer pricing, better than anything i found online, anywhere
cool
buying online seems a bit weird for supported products
I wanna go to NANOG, but I don't think I can.
have you been before?
Nope
wee
no.
this is a serious channel.
for serious business.
you keep that shit in line.
note to self:  don't mess with people that handle my food, my paycheck, or the VM host for my VPS.
wee all you like, good sir.
.... that sounds wrong.
lol
yeah lil bit.
&%@$, I say.
up_the_irons, jdoe - damnit, now I have to pee.
I was going to spin up a new box on ARPNetworks but the [FBI] idles here, f that noise.
just kidding.. just kidding..
sako_: hah