#arpnetworks 2012-08-28,Tue

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Who	What	When
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up_the_irons	welcome k3asd	[00:58]
k3asd	up_the_irons, thanks how are you?	[00:58]
up_the_irons	good, yourself? just wondering, how did you come to find our channel? I plastered it on our vps page header today... wondering if that worked freebsd port updates, wee!	[00:58]
k3asd	fine, thanks I find the channel list on freenode and this interested me I'm here a few days	[01:00]
up_the_irons	ah cool	[01:02]
k3asd	but I never opened my mouth :) you vps prices are competitive	[01:02]
up_the_irons	k3asd: yeah, i'd like to think so :) competitive, but not stupidly cheap. I like to maintain a certain quality of service. :)	[01:11]
Webhostbudd_	hahaha stupidly cheap ones are awesome	[01:12]
up_the_irons	maybe i should use that as a tagline	[01:12]
Webhostbudd_	i kinda want to do an analysis of price vs reliability	[01:12]
k3asd	up_the_irons, hahahahaah	[01:12]
Webhostbudd_	lovevps offers some pretty stupid cheap prices and i've never had downtime, but i don't put critical stuff there	[01:13]
up_the_irons	Webhostbudd_: i've been in this industry a long time; you get what u pay for, that's really what it comes down to	[01:13]
k3asd	up_the_irons, in Italy, prices are higher and the quality is not always that you are looking for	[01:13]
Webhostbudd_	then linode should give me some really good vps service lol	[01:13]
up_the_irons	k3asd: i c	[01:13]
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up_the_irons	Webhostbudd_: well, Linode is pretty good from what I'v heard :) They also have a ton of features	[01:14]
Webhostbudd_	up_the_irons: i've had too many outages with them, and im not a fan of their default images up_the_irons, and pricing isn't grat	[01:14]
up_the_irons	Webhostbudd_: o'rly, lots of outages? Webhostbudd_: their pricing is pretty high nowadays, i would agree	[01:14]
Webhostbudd_	up_the_irons: seems like my node always had problems, so im sure the experience varies	[01:15]
up_the_irons	roger	[01:15]
Webhostbudd_	i dunno, kvm always seemed better than xen anyway, and i can scratch my freebsd itch more easily on kvm	[01:15]
k3asd`	up_the_irons, i c ? which means?	[01:16]
Webhostbudd_	k3asd: i see?	[01:16]
up_the_irons	k3asd`: "i see"	[01:16]
k3asd`	ah, it's ok	[01:16]
up_the_irons	Webhostbudd_: kvm rocks, hands down. xen had its day and was great ,but technology has moved on	[01:16]
k3asd`	my english is funny :)	[01:16]
up_the_irons	k3asd`: you are in italy?	[01:17]
Webhostbudd_	up_the_irons: that's all i deploy anymore, i just wish i had a decent internet connection	[01:17]
up_the_irons	Webhostbudd_: decent internet where?	[01:17]
Webhostbudd_	well, im talking a hosting setup, namely symmetric upload/download speeds but of course that would be considered a "business feature" if even available, and pricey as heck	[01:18]
k3asd`	up_the_irons, live and work in Cagliari ( Sardinia )	[01:18]
up_the_irons	Webhostbudd_: ah right k3asd`: cool	[01:18]
k3asd`	I think we are a bit far away	[01:19]
up_the_irons	k3asd`: what time is it over there? :)	[01:19]
k3asd`	it's nineteen past ten am	[01:19]
up_the_irons	good morning :)	[01:19]
k3asd`	from you? ahahahha thank you :D	[01:19]
up_the_irons	:) such a nice temperature outside now... this only happens like 2 months out of the year in SoCal	[01:19]
mercutio	internet has come down in cost over the years	[01:22]
Webhostbudd_	yea, but speeds haven't increased enough	[01:22]
k3asd`	up_the_irons, here also reaches 40 degrees is not beautiful :/	[01:22]
mercutio	webhost: how so?	[01:22]
k3asd`	up_the_irons, we are you from?	[01:22]
mercutio	10 years ago i was on 128kbit	[01:23]
Webhostbudd_	mercutio: i guess i am one of those people who wishes it was always faster	[01:23]
mercutio	webhost: so do i :)	[01:23]
Webhostbudd_	mercutio: pfft i was there 5 years ago now im only on 5mbit 700kbit up	[01:23]
mercutio	but from where things are now things are complicated. ok that's kind of slow how much deos that cost?	[01:23]
Webhostbudd_	$50/mo	[01:23]
mercutio	ok so you could get two of them and bond them	[01:23]
Webhostbudd_	I'm not sure you could actually do that	[01:24]
mercutio	mm	[01:24]
Webhostbudd_	with this provider	[01:24]
mercutio	is that kind of internet speed common there?	[01:24]
up_the_irons	k3asd`: Los Angeles	[01:24]
Webhostbudd_	I have one possible choice for ISP, but not really	[01:24]
up_the_irons	born and raised	[01:24]
mercutio	so most people are much faster? because i happened to be looking at mpd	[01:24]
Webhostbudd_	mercutio: depends on where they live, some of them have access to verizon fios	[01:24]
mercutio	which allows multilink ppp	[01:24]
k3asd`	up_the_irons, cool :)	[01:25]
mercutio	mm	[01:25]
up_the_irons	:)	[01:25]
mercutio	that's a lot faster isn't it?	[01:25]
k3asd`	up_the_irons, is my dream go to Los Angeles	[01:25]
mercutio	i want to setup bonding sometime heh	[01:25]
Webhostbudd_	mercutio: it could be a lot faster, yea mercutio: but you could pay for a really cheap, slow plan	[01:25]
mercutio	oh? can you resell dsl connections there?	[01:26]
Webhostbudd_	no idea not going to lie, this refund through google might have been the most painful refund process ever	[01:26]
mercutio	hmm 5 megabit is adsl 1 ?	[01:27]
Webhostbudd_	mercutio: not using asdl?	[01:27]
mercutio	cable?	[01:27]
Webhostbudd_	yup	[01:27]
mercutio	docsis 1? :)	[01:27]
Webhostbudd_	i have no idea but i wouldn't be all that surprised	[01:28]
up_the_irons	k3asd`: you're not missing much ;)	[01:29]
mercutio	you can prob tell by your modem it may be docsis 2 it won't be docsis 3	[01:29]
Webhostbudd_	mercutio: im sure, but i don't have it on hand	[01:29]
mercutio	but the upgrade paths are pretty smooth it seems strange to have 5 megabit cable	[01:29]
Webhostbudd_	i actually left that for my apartment now, and im advertised to get 30/30 Mbit speed but im behind a nat router	[01:30]
mercutio	joy :) i hate nat	[01:30]
Webhostbudd_	and with all of the other tenants the speeds become pretty abysmal	[01:30]
mercutio	someone may be uploading too much	[01:31]
Webhostbudd_	looking into comcast because they are really the only option here, although not great	[01:31]
mercutio	even if you have symmetric net bittorrent or such can rape the connection	[01:31]
Webhostbudd_	anything can really	[01:31]
mercutio	yeh	[01:31]
Webhostbudd_	i know plenty of people here who torrent	[01:31]
mercutio	sfq can help but bittorrent will go faster than other net	[01:31]
Webhostbudd_	i have no idea what they are doing as far as QOS but from what i can tell it might be doing more harm than help	[01:32]
mercutio	well does it lag ot get packet lossy?	[01:32]
Webhostbudd_	oh yea youtube never buffers voip dies frequently	[01:32]
mercutio	it's probably red or wred that may be connection limits exhausting nat table	[01:32]
Webhostbudd_	yea	[01:32]
mercutio	mm	[01:33]
Webhostbudd_	it's honestly a bad time	[01:33]
mercutio	have you tried a gre tunnel?	[01:33]
Webhostbudd_	nope	[01:33]
mercutio	gre is connectionless / stateless which might mean you can fix state beetween but generally speaking	[01:33]
Webhostbudd_	yea, im not going to mess around much	[01:33]
mercutio	if you get >5% packet loss you're going to have problems	[01:34]
Webhostbudd_	it's not that bad	[01:34]
mercutio	like ssh connections stuttering, web page loads halting ok cool :)	[01:34]
Webhostbudd_	it pisses me off, and i would rather have public ip's / ipv6, so comcast will hopefully do the trick	[01:34]
mercutio	yeh	[01:34]
Webhostbudd_	i already have a docsis3 ipv6 modem	[01:35]
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mercutio	docsis 3 isn't actually too bad it's not as "fast" as fibre	[01:35]
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Webhostbudd_	i just have to pay these bastards to flip the switch to turn the cable service on	[01:35]
mercutio	but like transit is usually what makes speed difference	[01:35]
Webhostbudd_	i see	[01:35]
mercutio	at those kinds of speeds so it doesn't relaly matter and existing cable can be used... like docsis 3 can do bonding and do hhundreds of megabits but that's basically multiple access profiles	[01:35]
Webhostbudd_	nice	[01:36]
mercutio	but i think per connnection it's like 60megabit+ anyway the problem is existing docsis 2 users slow docsis 3 users down so every docsis 2 user that moves to docsis 3 frees up bandwidth and speeds up the net	[01:36]
Webhostbudd_	consequence of having cable, shared transmission lines	[01:37]
mercutio	soemtimes they hide these as free speed upgrade but you need a new modem. yeah but it has to be shared somewhere anyway you know when people kept saying that adsl used to use atm and that was a shared pipe	[01:37]
Webhostbudd_	mhmm	[01:37]
mercutio	that could easily lead to congestion because atm it'd be common to split the shared pipe the old problem with cable was upload ocngestion	[01:37]
k3asd`	up_the_irons, so so :)	[01:38]
mercutio	but that's been improved a lot these days	[01:38]
k3asd`	up_the_irons, arpnetworks are you society?	[01:38]
mercutio	like when bittorrent etc first came out, they'd hardly provisioned enough upload bandwidth	[01:38]
Webhostbudd_	it still has a ways to go unfortunately	[01:38]
up_the_irons	k3asd`: it's my business, yeah	[01:38]
mercutio	real?	[01:38]
Webhostbudd_	i just appreciate that some companies are paving the way for things to improve	[01:38]
mercutio	i dunno i've never used any amazingly-fast-net	[01:39]
Webhostbudd_	mercutio: i really haven't either	[01:39]
mercutio	there's just less slow and more slow	[01:39]
Webhostbudd_	hahaha	[01:39]
mercutio	i mean i've used by laptop on gigabit net it still felt slower than my desktop on adsl.	[01:39]
Webhostbudd_	unless you live in kansas city	[01:39]
mercutio	sonic are doing gigabit i think? that was at a data centre	[01:40]
Webhostbudd_	dunno	[01:40]
mercutio	but like seriously, it's way faster than dialup used to be	[01:40]
Webhostbudd_	i won't disagree with thta patches took ages and dealing with a single phone line was pretty bad	[01:40]
mercutio	patches? i had two phone lines	[01:41]
Webhostbudd_	games / operating systems	[01:42]
mercutio	oh ok	[01:42]
Webhostbudd_	i wish we had two phone lines	[01:42]
mercutio	i didn't find patches that bad well os/2 was special they made it so difficult to update it got a little better but i didn't upgrade as much back then	[01:42]
up_the_irons	i still have my os/2 warp box and disks	[01:42]
mercutio	up_the_irons: did you ever try tshell?	[01:43]
up_the_irons	mercutio: no	[01:43]
mercutio	there were a few kind of cool things like that around there was another one that just simplied the wps but like tshell made os/2 fast on 8mb ram that was really the issue with os/2 it wast oo memory hungry for computers that were common also ppp was way more complicated than windows	[01:44]
Webhostbudd_	lol serenity systems still releases bew versions of os/2 wth new versions*	[01:45]
mercutio	webhost: tbh os/2 2.1 through 4 weren't that diff i think i went back to 2.1 in the end 3 was generlaly considered the safe easy way to go 4 was like you had to update it with fixpacks to have minimal stability and it was kind of just adding lots of crap	[01:45]
Webhostbudd_	interesting	[01:46]
mercutio	but 2.1 didn't come with tcp/ip so you had to use that extra thingy	[01:46]
Webhostbudd_	well, ecomstation 2.1 supports pretty recent firefox stuff which is interesting	[01:47]
mercutio	firefox? eww :)	[01:47]
Webhostbudd_	i just can't believe someone develops it anymore and claims they are profitable who buys it you must be stuck in a real mess if you still need os/2 machines around	[01:47]
mercutio	i dunno os/2 wasn't that bad you should have seen the documentation it's like OMG SO MANY BOOKS but it has good references for every function call etc quite different from windows it was like an encyclopedia collection though	[01:48]
Webhostbudd_	hahaha	[01:49]
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k3asd`	up_the_irons, congratulations. I do a similar job but in this moment I trying to find work in the UK	[02:24]
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mercutio	freebsd is kind of scarily dated in places like pf is YEARS behind	[04:48]
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easymac	That's scary? There was talk of them branching PF away from OpenBSD anyway. Not sure what the decision was. .. or if there even was one	[05:08]
mercutio	branching pf away?	[05:12]
easymac	Yes.	[05:12]
mercutio	what do you mean?	[05:15]
easymac	I mean not tracking the OpenBSD source, rather maintaining their own codebase based on the older version of PF.	[05:16]
mhoran	pf is pretty awesome, compared to iptables.	[05:16]
mercutio	what!	[05:17]
easymac	Obviously, yeah. haha	[05:17]
mercutio	they should sync up	[05:17]
easymac	iptables is the most painful thing ever mercutio: Why?	[05:17]
mercutio	freebsd has already broken lots of things! what's with this /etc/rc.d etc?	[05:17]
easymac	What's wrong with /etc/rc.d ?	[05:17]
mercutio	there's no reason to hold back if you're making radical cahnges anyway well it's not /etc/rc.local	[05:17]
easymac	You just contradicted yourself I think.	[05:17]
mercutio	what i mean is that they're drastically changing things in incompatible ways	[05:17]
easymac	Incompatible with what?	[05:18]
mercutio	that are more significant than the minor syntax change in pf	[05:18]
easymac	I see no problem with drastic change where drastic change is due.	[05:18]
mercutio	with standard /etc/rclocal err /etc/rc.local yeh well it's ok to change/break things sometimes so people have to update their configs so they should just sync with current openbsd	[05:18]
easymac	It's life with software. Why? I don't understand that.	[05:18]
mercutio	because there are performance enhancements and it's more flexible and it means i don't have to screw around with the syntax when copying rules to freebsd from openbsd..	[05:19]
easymac	I dunno, I guess it's a difference of opinion. I don't feel each project has to be the union of all BSD projects.	[05:19]
mercutio	what i actually find most annoying about freebsd is the lack of default config files.	[05:20]
easymac	OpenBSD is far better than anything else as a network device, so let it do its job. FreeBSD is far better for serving, so ... I would actually prefer less overlap.	[05:20]
mercutio	mm	[05:21]
easymac	I hate when shit from one project is hacked into the other just for the sake of doing it.	[05:21]
mercutio	well openbsd doesn't have netgraph	[05:21]
easymac	It creates a mess.	[05:21]
mercutio	and so mpd doesn't work on openbsd	[05:21]
easymac	Yeah, there are exceptions, they're open source projects and one is far more popular than the other. There are differences of opinions too, so there's natural disorganization among the projects. Their efforts are definitely not aligned to some greater goal as well as they should be.	[05:22]
mercutio	hmm	[05:23]
easymac	That's probably due to the problems FreeBSD folk have with Theo Who knows...	[05:23]
mercutio	yeh things are a little fragmented l2tp support on unix in general is a bit behind	[05:23]
easymac	But, in a perfect world, the two projects would work together to be more organized. Tools necessary for network devices would be pushed into OpenBSD land and tools required for serving in FreeBSD. There would naturally be overlap, which could be optimized too. No such world exists, though. So, it is what it is.	[05:24]
mercutio	openbsd needs to do smp for networking sometime	[05:24]
easymac	Yeah, really. I fully agree. Also, ospfd shouldn't go completely insane when a new neighbor arrives. haha They also need to give you more than an on/off switch for routing daemons. It'd be nice to prioritize startups and whatnot. I'd like my IGP converged before BGP starts advertising routes out my transit peers that don't rely on IGP.	[05:25]
mercutio	is that openospfd? or another?	[05:28]
easymac	I use OpenOSPFd, yes.	[05:28]
mercutio	openbgpd seems slow on freebsd for some reaosn ie takes longer than openbsd to load full rout able route table openospfd port looked older than openbgpd i'm using using bgp as IGP have been since used to use quagga years back	[05:28]
easymac	I just use OSPF to validate nexthops.	[05:29]
mercutio	and quagga's ospf was too buggy	[05:29]
easymac	I basically carry nothing in OSPF.	[05:29]
mercutio	ahh ok	[05:29]
easymac	Everything should be BGP, it actually scales. haha	[05:29]
mercutio	i was kind of idlely curious if i could load balance outgoing routes in freebsd have you ever tried bird?	[05:29]
easymac	Nah, never. I've had good luck with OpenBSD and I hate fiddling with things until they work. I just want it to work out of the box.	[05:31]
mercutio	ahh yip i just tried it the other day on linux not advertising any routes it's more confusing than openbgpd to me	[05:31]
easymac	haha	[05:31]
mercutio	but it seems preferable to quagga	[05:32]
easymac	Static routing seems preferable to quagga	[05:32]
mercutio	hahaha it's gross	[05:32]
easymac	That's gotta be the must annoying piece of software on Earth, aside from Microsoft Word.	[05:32]
mercutio	well zebra was bad too	[05:32]
easymac	Truth is, I'd ditch all this shit in two seconds if my company would cough up the money for some Juniper hardware.	[05:33]
mercutio	heh	[05:33]
easymac	I might use it on our private networks, MIS, corporate, etc... But I'd love Juniper in the backbone.	[05:33]
mercutio	mm both transit links that i use openbgpd with are on juniper gear	[05:34]
easymac	Wouldn't waste the money on doing Juniper routers for offices and stuff. Free or Open could handle that type of networking easily.	[05:34]
mercutio	they seem pretty common here both providers are using mx480s i don't think mx480s are cheap	[05:34]
easymac	No, I'm sure they're not. Not much (that's worth buying) in the MX line is cheap	[05:35]
mercutio	http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Juniper-MX480-PREMIUM-DC-Base-system-with-redundant-RE-2000-SCB-DC-Power-/251131667989?pt=US_Enterprise_Routers&hash=item3a789d2615 hmm $35k usd	[05:36]
easymac	Doesn't Juniper refuse to support hardware that was sold like that? Err hardware that changed hands, I guess	[05:37]
mercutio	not sure but it gives an idea on price it's not like they're likely to list any prices online	[05:37]
easymac	Yeah. You could always look on CDW or something, and divide in half. haha	[05:38]
mercutio	it's basically the same ast hat calculation maybe slightly more that way never heard of cdw	[05:39]
easymac	They're big in the US. Expensive, but reliable type of thing.	[05:40]
mercutio	ahh i'm in new zealand	[05:41]
easymac	I see, yeah, I know nothing about what's out there.	[05:41]
mercutio	hmm	[05:41]
easymac	Except hobbits and the like. :)	[05:41]
mercutio	heh i think for isp type people juniper are very common here for corporate type people cisco are very common	[05:41]
easymac	Same here and probably everywhere.	[05:42]
mercutio	heh brocade are more common there than here i think and extreme networks etc	[05:42]
easymac	Yeah, in the past few years I've heard lots of chatter about them, but I've never come across one in any of my work experience.	[05:43]
mercutio	hmm	[05:43]
easymac	Generally Cisco, Juniper or BSD. Much less BSD than the others.	[05:43]
mercutio	an open source router would be kind of cool with asic forwarding	[05:43]
easymac	Only a matter of time.	[05:43]
mercutio	but the software is so far behind in those regards. yeah when i shifted to openbgpd i didn't know anyone running openbsd at all i inherited zebra/quagga network. and for some reason it'd fuck up really badly sometimes :/	[05:43]
up_the_irons	i thought vyatta was somewhat an open source router with asic forwarding (granted, probably not a lot of routes, but something)	[05:45]
mercutio	vyatta is pretty new	[05:45]
easymac	A friend of mine did quite a bit of work making FreeBSD route fast for use in OCCAID, so I heard of him doing crazy shit with BSD for routing, but otherwise, I knew of nobody doing it.	[05:45]
mercutio	they do software for base machines i know but they probably have a hardware offering. no idea about asic forwarding	[05:45]
up_the_irons	easymac: is your friend named dima? sounds like a guy i know...	[05:46]
easymac	blahdy	[05:46]
up_the_irons	i c i've heard some good things about brocade; not so much with extreme, but i even have an extreme running on the tier-2 network side (and it's pretty bad ass) the extreme guys (on the phone) were pretty cool actually, very helpful	[05:46]
mercutio	hmm	[05:47]
up_the_irons	they hooked me up with a VAR that had killer pricing, better than anything i found online, anywhere	[05:47]
mercutio	cool buying online seems a bit weird for supported products	[05:47]
easymac	I wanna go to NANOG, but I don't think I can.	[06:01]
mercutio	have you been before?	[06:09]
easymac	Nope	[06:09]
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	antennageek has joined #arpnetworks antennageek is now known as niner up_the_irons has joined #arpnetworks ChanServ sets mode: +o up_the_irons	[16:13]
up_the_irons	wee	[16:16]
jdoe	no. this is a serious channel. for serious business. you keep that shit in line.	[16:18]
niner	note to self: don't mess with people that handle my food, my paycheck, or the VM host for my VPS. wee all you like, good sir. .... that sounds wrong.	[16:23]
up_the_irons	lol	[16:24]
jdoe	yeah lil bit.	[16:26]
***	bGeorge has joined #arpnetworks nestea has joined #arpnetworks	[16:29]
	mike-burns has joined #arpnetworks ChanServ sets mode: +o mike-burns	[16:44]
dr_jkl	&%@$, I say. dr_jkl dropped her phone in a cup of soda	[16:45]
kraigu	up_the_irons, jdoe - damnit, now I have to pee.	[16:45]
sako_	I was going to spin up a new box on ARPNetworks but the [FBI] idles here, f that noise. just kidding.. just kidding..	[16:45]
***	Webhostbudd has joined #arpnetworks	[16:46]
up_the_irons	sako_: hah	[16:47]
***	phlux has joined #arpnetworks beandog has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)	[16:55]
	gcw\|mbpro has joined #arpnetworks	[17:05]
..... (idle for 21mn)
	niner has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)	[17:26]
	gcw\|mbpro has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) gcw\|mbpro has joined #arpnetworks	[17:36]
.... (idle for 18mn)
	sako_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)	[17:55]
.... (idle for 15mn)
	gcw\|mbpro has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) gcw\|mbpro has joined #arpnetworks	[18:10]
.... (idle for 18mn)
	Ehtyar has joined #arpnetworks	[18:28]
............... (idle for 1h12mn)
	mike-burns has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) mike-burns has joined #arpnetworks ChanServ sets mode: +o mike-burns	[19:40]
..... (idle for 24mn)
	himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)	[20:05]
	himuraken has joined #arpnetworks	[20:17]
	himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)	[20:22]
	himuraken has joined #arpnetworks	[20:34]
	himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)	[20:46]
	himuraken has joined #arpnetworks	[20:58]
	himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)	[21:08]
	himuraken has joined #arpnetworks	[21:20]
	himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)	[21:34]
	himuraken has joined #arpnetworks	[21:45]
.... (idle for 16mn)
	himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)	[22:01]
	sako has joined #arpnetworks himuraken has joined #arpnetworks	[22:10]
	himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)	[22:24]
	himuraken has joined #arpnetworks	[22:36]
	sako has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)	[22:43]
	himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)	[22:57]
	himuraken has joined #arpnetworks	[23:09]
	himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)	[23:15]
	himuraken has joined #arpnetworks	[23:26]
	sako has joined #arpnetworks	[23:35]
	mike-burns has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) mike-burns has joined #arpnetworks ChanServ sets mode: +o mike-burns slosldd has joined #arpnetworks himuraken has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)	[23:45]

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