jlgaddis: no web frontend to powerdns, it just powers my Reverse DNS manager
jdoe: mercutio : the comparable Intel stuff is sexy too, but way expensive
up_the_irons: do the new cpus support bulldozer?
err i mean are they bulldozer
i actually have no ideahow much cpu ssh would be taking up
but i like the idea of it being accelerated :0
mercutio: they are bulldozer, yes.  would ssh even take advantage of the hardware aes-ni?  like, how would it know it's there.. probably need a new version of ssh
if it's anything like the old VIA AES instructions it just requires the right openssl setup for most things to use it
ah cool
'openssl engine'
up_the_irons: openssl needs to be up to date
lt: ubuntu doesn't show it in openssl engine now
do you have one of those cpus now?
 openssl speed -evp aes-256-cbc
you want to run that command
type             16 bytes     64 bytes    256 bytes   1024 bytes   8192 bytes
aes-256-cbc     202878.63k   208678.91k   206311.52k   225509.62k   222816.90k
if it's anything like as high as that it's accelerated
if it's more like:
type             16 bytes     64 bytes    256 bytes   1024 bytes   8192 bytes
aes-256-cbc      73896.75k    74157.50k    75189.17k    75321.54k    75582.84k
then it's not
hmm rhel stilll shows it in engine
aes-256-cbc     614184.36k   684397.85k   696434.09k   699525.12k   701133.83k
that's accelerated numbers :)
actually i wonder if that first one is accelerating properly
type             16 bytes     64 bytes    256 bytes   1024 bytes   8192 bytes
aes-256-cbc     164786.10k   183756.50k   189753.15k   190754.71k   191059.91k
cos that's the number of non accelerated core 2 duo
actually mine wasn't accelerated...
really?
how come?
options:bn(64,64) rc4(16x,int) des(idx,cisc,16,int) aes(partial) blowfish(idx)
# openssl engine
(rsax) RSAX engine support
(dynamic) Dynamic engine loading support
is there something else that has to be done too?
hmm... you have me wondering now
the first number is xeon e5420
actually xeon E5345
model name      : Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU           E5345  @ 2.33GHz
and you''re like nearly 10 as fast
type             16 bytes     64 bytes    256 bytes   1024 bytes   8192 bytes
aes-256-cbc     134099.06k   152144.10k   157358.49k   158168.27k   157409.28k
e5420 is quite a bit faster
actually i wonder if i'm accelerated properly
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openssl/+bug/1001424
type             16 bytes     64 bytes    256 bytes   1024 bytes   8192 bytes
aes-256-cbc     213802.95k   687449.25k  1094622.32k  1083138.24k  1088128.52k
oh yeah it is accelerating, I thought I could trick it by setting -engine to something else but it seems to load the engine anyway
it's a lot quicker when you pass -decrypt
-decrypt        time decryption instead of encryption (only EVP).
The 'numbers' are in 1000s of bytes per second processed.
type             16 bytes     64 bytes    256 bytes   1024 bytes   8192 bytes
aes-256-cbc      59636.47k    41641.90k   141532.70k   150321.79k   152577.39k
but e5345 still sucks at decrypt
aes-256-cbc     613619.75k  1452257.90k  1860791.98k  1988995.41k  2028642.30k
lt: what cpu is that?
X5690
hmm
oh that's really high ghz isn't it?
3.47ghz ?
versus 2 ghz
it's the first intel series to support aes-ni i think
wow those things are expensive :/
yes... but useful if you're stuck running something single threaded
like dos?
the new e5s latency reduction thing sounds intersting
i suppose it'll come into desktops soon
opteron 6276 seems similar speed to x5650
e5-2690 is like 50% faster
but e5-2690 is like what the recent version of what you're using
ie: expensive :/
it's also power hungry
http://www.anandtech.com/print/5553
reading that
what opteron 6276 is expensive too :/
oh it's cheaper than X5670
and X5690 isn't even sold here :/
the latest new thing always is expensive - we tend to wait until the next new thing is out then buy up the best of the last generation on the cheap
ahh i see
i prefer lower spec newer stuff generally
but end up with lower spec older stuff :/
the e5-2620 is actually pretty good value
and all the opterons seem to be branded hp
up_the_irons: what cpus are in the kvm nodes atm?  kvm hides the cpu type
it says 2.641 ghz
but that's about as much
x3450?
i'm guessing it's 2.66ghz
or e5430
or e5150
you have to tell ssh to use aes
otherwise it defaults to blowfish
without acceleration aes256-cbc and blowfish are about the same speed and aes128-cbc is faster
and ptuty defaults to aes rater than blowfish
openssh defaults to aes128...
does it?
aes128-cbc?
 Ciphers aes128-ctr,aes192-ctr,aes256-ctr,arcfour256,arcfour128,aes128-cbc,3des-cbc
i actually foudn this
commented out
blowfish isn't even in that last?
but if i change that first entry to be aes128-cbc ssh to localhost with dd'ed zero data is faster
oh hmm
that really isn't a good test is it
default is in the ssh_config man page... probably varies due to version, but aes has been preferred for many many versions
it's aes128-ctr versus aes128-cbc?
what's the diff
i was reading something old that said blowfish default :)
one is ctr mode one is cbc mode :p
ctr is meant to be easily parallelisable, cbc isn't
209715200 bytes (210 MB) copied, 6.54909 s, 32.0 MB/s
versus
209715200 bytes (210 MB) copied, 2.4191 s, 86.7 MB/s
and non-zero file
oh?
first is ctr second is cbc
  dd if=/var/www/testfile.zip bs=1024k | ssh -c aes128-cbc  root@localhost 'dd of=/dev/null'
hmm# gzip -cv /var/www/testfile.zip| wc
/var/www/testfile.zip:   -0.0% 820474 4625767 209749312
so non compressable
it would be nice to be like more than 50% faster than that :)
so that ssh can be liek gigabit speeds with encrpytion
if you want fast ssh you need the hpn version - that actually has a parallel version of aes-ctr
oh?
i don't really need faster ssh
i was just curious how much diff these acceleration things made
and i'm not getting a lot of diff
aes128-cbc is faster than aes128-ctr on xeon e5435 too though..
maybe there's no acceleration for ctr but there is for cbc? dunno
does the hpn version work on openbsd?
xeon 5435 has no acceleration aynway
err i meant 5345
but i think that could be right too LT
cos i foudn a rhel bug about such, i cant' acecss it though to see more about it
cbc is a pretty standard way of doing things that's been around for ages, but ctr is newer and I think the ssh people might even have invented it
hmm
well the ssh people took out the none cypher
i like the idea of encrypting auth but not data :)
the hpn version adds none back
ahh
i do slightly remember hpn from ages back
when ssh had window size limitations
that made international transfer speeds always suck
back then it was always behind ssh by quite a few verisons
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/book.html is a great free book for understanding the differences between cbc, ctr, etc as an aside
cool i'll bookmark it
hmm dd over ssh is faster than scp
i do actualyl want to understand encrpytion sometime .. especially with regards to interactive ssh type applications
(ie not much data.. data could be guessed by delays between keystrokes etc)
type             16 bytes     64 bytes    256 bytes   1024 bytes   8192 bytes
aes-256-cbc     279385.84k   277993.37k   301771.51k   318107.50k   319316.99k
mercutio: ^^
AMD 6216
mercutio: the kvm nodes are dual E5430's
these are numbers on the E5430's (no acceleration)
type             16 bytes     64 bytes    256 bytes   1024 bytes   8192 bytes
aes-256-cbc      95563.29k   106319.22k   110646.64k   112421.96k   106064.11k
jeez
Intel Xeon E5-2660 Sandy Bridge-EP 2.2GHz
$1329
all i can is
Fuck That(tm)
*say is
 3:28PM  up 391 days, 17:36, 4 users, load averages: 0.05, 0.06, 0.01
^My ARPNetworks FreeBSD VPS...I think I'm going to be starting it from scratch soon :(
$ uptime
 13:49:07 up 958 days, 13:37,  3 users,  load average: 4.09, 4.76, 4.38
kvr04 went up to 983 days, my longest box ever
good lord
maybe this one will surpass it
am I on that box, by chance?
that's kvr05
check your vnc host, says what box you're on
I honestly don't even know what I'm on
Roger that, one second
bah
I don't know my VNC host :\
I thought it would be in the dashboard somewhere
oh wait, it is
I'm on kvr06
ah
that's a long running host too
$ uptime
 13:07:43 up 934 days, 10:01,  2 users,  load average: 3.10, 3.23, 3.31
nice
Hopefully it keeps it up :P
:)
all that time with no kernel security patches :D
My ARPNetworks VPS is the hub of my entire network because of its stability
I've got VPSes from elsewhere, and they don't really compare imo
I've considered moving my entire network to ARPNetworks, but I don't know how much sense that would make for me.
phlux: :)
phlux: i say "do it"
haha, I bet!
If I could ensure that my servers were all on different hosts, I will be convinced to swap over everything.
twobitha1ker: i knew someone would say that...
Someone says that to me about my VPS, too
I tell them to go ahead and exploit it for me right quick
that's what you always hear when u try to tout uptime
phlux: LOL hahaha
They always answer "Sure give me a shell." It doesn't work that way. If I did that, I'd be giving you a head start.
phlux: well, we *do* put VMs of the same customer on different hosts, by default.
No kidding?
So if I picked up 3 more at the same time, all 3 would be on separate hosts?
this one dude got like 15 VMs, in one day, and that was the only time it was hard to make sure they all got spread out
phlux: sure of course
If so, I am going to make that change on Sep 1 (which also happens to be my birthday, yay me!)
Awesome
It's going to be so much easier paying one company :P
phlux: i understand the concern about not having all eggs in one basket, i practice that myself, so why not do it for the customers?
phlux: see if you can negotiate for an arpnetworks tshirt
up_the_irons: I'm glad to hear that you do it that way.
lol fink
YEAH
3 servers for 1 T-shirt
whaddya say?!
phlux: i wish i knew that was your only concern, i would have addressed it earlier :)
up_the_irons: No worries. I originally signed up a long time ago with the intention of "testing the waters," and I ended up using that VPS for *everything*
phlux: haha cool
Speaking of which, I'm teaching a guy some things, and he's most likely going to pick up a VPS from ARP in the coming days.
Hoping his introduction to programming goes smoothly..he wants to be an IT Commisioned Officer in the USCG. I'm waiting for him so we can try to go to OCS together. We're both already enlisted, so we wouldn't really be competing with eachother.
I got invited to OCS, then saw the age cutoff was 29.  I officially felt old (I'm 33)
i hunger, cd $food
Dang I didn't know that the cutoff was 29
I'm only 23 (as stated earlier, 24 soon) so I haven't had to worry about age limits for anything, yet
up_the_irons: child :D
I was considering re-careering here as a direct entry officer, but the Canadian Forces dropped signing bonuses and I couldn't afford the pay cut without one
Man, if I'd have joined a year earlier, I'd have got a signing bonus with the CG.
I became an MST (Marine Science Technician)
I deal with oil spills, HAZMAT releases, waterfront facility regulations, foreign and domestic vessel inspections, and container inspections.
That's a mouthfull.
also I suggested this possibility to my wife and her reaction was nearly as violent as I could expect in Kandahar :\
o.O
?
up_the_irons: Given that kvr05 has 934 days uptime, how is its health?
kraigu: lol
arenlor: health looks good; there are a couple drives with reallocated sectors, but i did a raid verify (twice) on it, and everything checked out; so, i'm just watching it
phlux: that sounds interesting, actually
up_the_irons: Alright, given that my important eggs are on it, don't care to have it go down too suddenly ^_^
phlux: you will have to worry about age limit for American Idol soon (26, i think ;)
arenlor: i hear ya.  i don't want a repeat of kvr04, where i spent all day and night at the data center nursing it back to health
up_the_irons: well they do say natural breastfeeding is better than the bottle, so good job
lol
up_the_irons: e5-2620 is a lot cheaper than e5-2660
and your e5430 results seem a little low
ie i got higher results than that from e5420
it may be openssl version, or it may be load / context switching overhead
mercutio: well, that was on a production server, hardly idle
yeh load could create that
it could be related to openssl version too
OpenSSL 1.0.1c 10 May 2012
is what i was using
err actually it was 1.01
1.0.1
i think openssl changed a bit recently
mercutio: i was using 0.9.8something
up_the_irons: less talking.. more testing centos images or spending time with your family.
;)
i'm researching ways of exporting a block device from one host to another (say an lvm volume from one host to some /dev/foo on another).  i've used AoE before, but things these days seem to be leaning toward iSCSI.  Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?
jpalmer: lol
jpalmer: the kids are asleep:)
same with the wife
iscsi is the new hotness.  do it!
brb
I think I'ma head to bed.
night all
'nite
up_the_irons: think newer versions have improved by a bit
up_the_irons: with iscsi you want to have seperate network for it and use large mtus
balancing can be annoying, you c an use either multiple gigabit or expensive 10 gigabit
but with gigabit you limit top speed to 110mb/sec or something
fibre channel is the other option that is affordable
but most of the affordable stuff ise second hadn
and 10 gigabit ethernet is coming down in cost
that said 100mb/sec is racing, if access times are good
mercutio: i c
mercutio: separate network is no problem, large mtus no problem
pretty easy to bond 2 gige's, but fc would be better
mercutio: have you used any iscsi targets that you would deem reliable?
only opensolaris
interesting
and that's in state of "uhh what's happening"
wut?:)
well when oracle bought sun
everyone left
err a lot of the higher up people left
there was a fork to illumos
ah
the illumos camp is hopping
openindiana is going between prereleases...
it's the only place to be
oh, would you look at that... who has illumosvps.com  (me)
openindiana seems stable with ok hardware
stable as in reliable
they have a lot of sun people working there so we should see some good stuff
but not stable as in "one version for years"
yeh
well, no
smartos sounds interesting too
smartos is a great concept
dang, i have openindianavps.com too
md3000i is around for iscsi support but is slow
i musta been looking toward the future... ;)
there are higher cost options too
hmm
well joyent ported kvm to illumos
it runs very well
holy shit, they did?
yes
yeh
wow
runs good?
that's what i have heard
the base tools haven't had the work they need
but the raw support is stable
yes
exactly
once they port libvirt
even though they ported it quickly
it is going to be very attractive
showing that they have good engineers
they have a lot of the old sun guys
because of the mass exodus from oracle
by good poeple leaving oracle
people like the guy who made java left
mhmm
smartos _does_ sound interesting
all of the zfs, dtrace and other solaris kernel specialists left
and said how he was unhappy with the direction oracle were taking sun
and you'd think someone like that isn't likely to be someone who would motuh off randomly
they aren't
they LEFT
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Java-Creator-James-Gosling-Why-I-Quit-Oracle-813517/
yeh but i mean it's not like a straight business man leaving or something
and saying about his new venture
no, they just don't want to be a part of the lawnmower
up_the_irons: i could totally see you running smartos one day
up_the_irons: assuming it becomes stable
Webhostbudd_: i'm checking it out right now
what's funny is that their port of KVM requires the use of zones
so each kvm instance is wrapped in a zone
oddly enough it prevents a lot of kvm exploits
because the attacker can't break the zone
i think that was a sensible move
yes it was
i mean, why not
it gives the administrator even more control over the virtual instance
and with zfs you can clone file systems
and do copy on write
zfs is amazing
so it's not as high overhead having heaps of zones
smartos is a killer combination of technologies
i would love to see it get bigger
webhost: marketing on the other hand...
have you seen their videos?
no?
they seem tacky
it's pretty hard to market it at this point though
let's be honest, they don't have a product to ship
i think they do?
joyent are doing private clouds already
so does smartos run illumos underneath?
http://joyent.com/solutions/privatecloud/
no one who is concerned with how they market a product is going to call that a product
up_the_irons: yeh
up_the_irons: yes
and is one of the major contributors
and illumos is an opensolaris fork?
illumos is the kernel if i am not mistaken
or do they do userland work?
illumus is like the base system
like netbsd etc i think
yea, that was always my impression
yeah i think i get it
except they don't actually assemble any of it
openindiana is more like opensolaris
i wanna say it would be like GNU finishing a kernel
there's also nexenta
or something
which uses apt-get
the way i see it, GNU = illumos and OI / nexenta are distros
IF GNU had a kernel
so, with zones, i've always thought of them to be the solaris equivalent of freebsd jails.  and since they are just processes that share the same base OS kernel, is it true the only thing you can put in a zone is another illumos instance?
up_the_irons: mostly true
up_the_irons: i think it's like freebsd jails, but a bit more brokenout
(and that instance could run kvm, yeah, but in the end, it's still illumos)
yes
roger
but there is probably work to emulate linux / bsd systemcalls
i know freebsd jails can run centos
with linux emulation
web: i think that work is still behind
maybe
smartos is getting a new package manager i think
i don't use zones so i wouldn't know
and packages can be old at present
well, all of the illumos stuff seems to be using pkgsrc
so illumos is only the kernel, and openindiana is kinda like kernel + userland (e.g. GNU)
but i think in general it's under quite a lot of active work
freebsd jails can run cent?  LOL
up_the_irons: yea, i think that is probably more correct
up_the_irons: bottom line, you don't run illumos
Webhostbudd_: yeah makes sense, at least roughly
openindiana has both sun and gnu userland
directly
yea
ls you have /usr/gnu/bin/dd
and /usr/bin/dd
and the normal dd doesn't support things like conv=fdatasync
there is a really cool fork out there
which im really digging
stormos
debian userland + illumos kernel
webhost: what have they done?
similar to debian kfreebsd
oh?
i think i'm gonna load this up on one of my microcloud blades
give it a shot
smartos is doiugn things new and fancy
like they want you to network boot
even more reason to finish that box and haul it to the d/c
mercutio: which is great
and have all the storage on a machine running under zfs
imagine how easy it is to deploy nodes
which isn't a new concept
nope
don't the big guys do it?
people have been doing such with esxi etc for a while
vmware
yea
but like they're working towards "well thought out" ways of doing things
which i like
but also allowing a steeper learning curve
and doing things diffrently
like they're not trying to just support a whole lot of legacy ways of thinking
nope
they're trying to streamline things etc
i really appreciate the effort for a solid, opensource hypervisor
linux really doesn't fit the bill
well, the distros of today don't
illumos is a very solid kernel though
hardware support is probably shaky though
outside of your common server hardware
it's better than esxi for hardware support
i would only want to run common server hardware ;)
which is outstandingly sad
the uncommon stuff is expensive...
up_the_irons: one of the older hp's was broken a while back
hp's make me cringe
cpqarwy o rwhatever scsi controllers
cpqary3
if it'll run on an Ivy Bridge 3.4GHz + plain ol' SATA + Intel GB, then that's all i need :)
http://www.greenviolet.net/articles/2011/09/21/openindiana-151a-and-hp-smart-array-controllers.gv
anyone here in the market for a sas expander?
up_the_irons: yeh it'll do that
mercutio: yeah i didn't figure that basic of hardware would be a challenge
up_the_irons: you need nehalem or whatever or newer cpus for kvm under illumos
mercutio: well sure, u need that for kvm in general
yes
well the hp thing would effect quite a lot of older hardware
up_the_irons: nah
ehhhh
nah
wut
up_the_irons: e5430 won't run kvm on illumos
i run kvm on adm phenoms
mercutio: oh? why?
because they're relying on some newer intel feature
ah
yes
uhh it hikn it's EPT
interesting
i can't remember what it was
that sounds correct
they don't support amd at all do they?
oh, extended page tables?
web: that was the case last i knew
no amd support?!
nope
up_the_irons: that's what it stands for but i don't know if that' the case
or if it was anothe rfeature
k
up_the_irons: someone may fix the amd stuff sometime
but smartos developers focused on intel
i'm loving my AMD 6212 system...
Currently KVM on OpenIndiana only supports recent Intel VT chipsets.
Webhostbudd_: ah gotcha
bulldozer opterons huh?
yup
do you get 16+ cores on those?
the 6212's have 8
oh
but two sockets on my board, so 16 altogether
Finally, there is no support currently for AMD SVM. This is not a value judgement of AMD's technology, but rather a reflection of limited engineering and testing resources. (In the spirit of full disclosure, it should be said that the sponsor of illumos-kvm, Joyent, is an Intel-funded company -- but the lack of AMD support reflects only engineering prioritization and lack of testing infrastructure; AMD SVM support would be most welcome should someone in the 
it sucks that those 8 cores get beaten so badly by 4 intel cores
Webhostbudd_: my cpus: http://i.imgur.com/Ed6nw.png
Webhostbudd_: in benchmarks or real world operation?
actually more in real world
cuz i'm finding them to be quite awesome
but a lot of server stuff is multithreaded and integer intensive so bulldozer should be a good fit
yeah
you've also got context switches to worry about
and having more cores can cut down in that when virtualising
exactly
context switching is super high in virt
i've never seen any good benchmarks for high load virtualisation
of multiple diff applications
no, and that is a problem
i find that benchmarks are like job interview questions; they look good on paper but do not reflect how the thing will behave in real life situations
exactly
up_the_irons: well it depends if you find the right benchmarks..
you can also find the right interview questions
like you cna easily find game benchmarks to know if a video card will be a good fit for you
mercutio: maybe i'm looking at the wrong stuff then
but finding cpu benchmarks for virtualisation ... yeh..
mercutio: that's pretty hard to say though
mercutio: yeah, games are specialized, cpus are generalized
mm
that's actually the problem with game benchmarks though
i'd look at kernel compile time benchmarks probably
unless you always play the same games...
but they're still not going to be accurate
webhost: you're comparing video cards to see what would be "good enoguh" for you :)
mercutio: kernel compile time might be a good overall heuristic, it uses disk + cpu
compile benchmarks have a lot of floating point though right?
webhost: nope
i would imagine
no?
why would compilers be floating point?
video encoding etc would be
but compiling is gnerally memory/integer heavy
see, i would assume that
if you add 2.5 + 3.5 on a compiler using float point numbers
the compiler only has to generate the assembler
that doesn't require it actually doing the maths.
oh im not talking about that
mercutio: perhaps at the optimize phase there is fp (but not lexer, parser, etc...)
*optimization
yes
this is what i always thought
well, if you multiply by 1.5
it probably does a shift
and adds it to the number
rather than actually doing it in floatin gpoint
im not talking about arthimetic in code at all
hmm
there's not that much optimisation work these days.
there's some, but it's not really as fancy as people often seem to believe.
obviously
fancy stuff breaks
heh
people like to believe a lot of cool stuff is at work
it's mostly stuff like cache line optimisation that is easier for compiler to do than by hand
mhmm
and reordering to prevent stalls.
yep
i'm still surprised by how big the linux kernel is
freaking massive
i'd like a kernel < 1 megabyte compressed really
i have one with lots of stuff disabled and it's still 3.4mb compressed
back with linux 2.1 it wasl ike 500 or 600k compressed
lol freebsd kernel so small
how big is freebsd kernel?
that's not real
bullshit
630k
really
openbsd is 5.1 mb
did freebsd go to modules?
i do have a lot of stuff disabled in my kernel
freebsd does have modules
but i also removed a ton of built in device support
openbsd isn't compressed
nor modular
well
my freebsd kernel doesn't even have ufs support
oh
i mean, i compiled everything out
it can't be zfs with that size
what fs are you using?
zfs doesn't build directly into the kernel
and zfs is only 120k
oh
it's not huge
that's good
nice
sec
i've got this thing against bloat :)
alright, i was massively mistaken
=p
2mb for zfs.ko
lol
heh
i thought zfs was big :)
it'll have support code etc
well, i knew it was big, i thought most people just overestimate
heh
zfs is a bit of a memory hog too
it's nice ram got cheaper :)
oh god yea
zfs is quite a memory hog
zfs is fast with lots of ram though
blazing
i love that arc cache
weird this page says kvm just needs vmx
which kvm?
illumos
linux kvm probably
oh
maybe they added support recently?
ARC Size: Current Size:             3598 MB (arcsize) Target Size (Adaptive):   3598 MB (c) Min Size (Hard Limit):    638 MB (zfs_arc_min) Max Size (Hard Limit):    5111 MB (zfs_arc_max)
and maybe that OI wiki is out of date
"memory hog" is another word for "aggressive caching" ;)
https://github.com/joyent/illumos-kvm/
it goes real slow with 2gb of ram
so wait.... that thing works on amd!
oh
what?
derp
svm is amd
yea
that page makes installing kvm really hard
it's actually simple on openindiana
just use smartos =p
EPT is supported on E5430
maybe it does work on earlier cpus?
interesting
what's this omnios
people love illumos
jeese
anyone know of a good iscsi target for linux?  i see iscsitarget and open-iscsi (and i actually don't know of open-iscsi can be a target...)
no idea
god, i can't believe illumos is built with gcc 3.4.3
that just feels super old now