#arpnetworks 2012-08-16,Thu

Webhostbudd

nice

up_the_irons

we have a customer VPN set up now too (OpenVPN), to access IPMI cards

Webhostbudd

so jealous
i doubt i could afford you guys though =(
but the vpn access is awesome, that's one thing i really dislike about my current dedi
they have it hosted on the public internet

up_the_irons

mnathani: no, we're not really equiped to cancel accounts then turn around right away and recreate them, at a loss.
Webhostbudd: lol, really? haha, there's a hack waiting to happen

[00:03]

Webhostbudd

yea, i've been hacking together some rudimentary security with iptables scripts on the nvram
it's really not ideal though
the company i'm with is sketchy at best, but they have uptime

[00:04]

up_the_irons

Webhostbudd: what is the current dedi deal you are getting? maybe i can match it (doubt it if it is crazy low, but let's see...)

Webhostbudd

e3-1230 v2 with 16GB ram and 2x1TB disks for $115

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up_the_irons

Webhostbudd dang, good deal

Webhostbudd

and a 100mb line which is unmetered, although unmetered isn't a dealbreaker for me
as long as the box runs, the place is alright. But god forbid you need support or want to do anything outside of your own box, it is pretty awful
luckily after they fixed the bad sticks of ram in the box and enabled ipmi i haven't had to worry much
since you guys use supermicro ipmi on a private lan, do you also have a read-only cifs share on it for iso's?
that would be awesome

up_the_irons

Webhostbudd: yes, we do. not cifs, but on a plain ol' samba share. IPMI mounts it as virtual media. you can install anything you like.

[00:08]

Webhostbudd

yea

[00:09]

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[00:09]

Webhostbudd

see, with my current host it has pretty much been, grab the cheapest vps possible to host the samba share for the image
i guess that is what you get for the price :)

[00:10]

up_the_irons

Webhostbudd: so they host the samba share on a cheap vps? LOL. our samba share is actually on the high perf mirrors.arpnetworks.com box, so it is made for file serving.

[00:12]

Webhostbudd

no no
i host it =p
they don't even do anything
it's a freaking dance on my end just to get this stuff working
a little entertaining having to pivot around though

[00:12]

up_the_irons

lol
Webhostbudd: you comfortable with OpenVPN?

[00:15]

Webhostbudd

definitely

[00:15]

up_the_irons

if so, you should have no problem getting set up on ours, accessing IPMI, virtual media, etc...

[00:16]

Webhostbudd

openvpn is awesome
most of what i do with it is site-to-site anymore
but i do have it on my client machines for bacula backups
at any rate
the service you guys offer sounds pretty nice
out of curiosity is there a public dedicated server page on arpnetworks.com yet?

[00:16]

up_the_irons

Webhostbudd: there isn't yet; my work with it has more been through email and ppl telling me what they want. i am learning about the whole dedi business as well, so when I get the new page up, it'll be more refined. already have learned that 2x drives could become 4x easily, and some want RAID. So that blows away my microcloud chassis, but at least the 1U's are easy to build :)

[00:19]

Webhostbudd

ahhh

[00:20]

up_the_irons

wtf is this lag about...
64.7
...and now it fixes itself

[00:28]

Webhostbudd

weird

[00:31]

up_the_irons

jpalmer: is the default CentOS 6.3 install a minimal one (+ SSH and the basics)? When I used the GUI installer, it didn't really ask me anything about package selection. When i logged in for the first time, 'yum list' (or w/e) had a lot of X11 packages, is that normal?

[00:36]

mercutio

one issue with using cifs with those ipmi things is they tend to have terrible speeds if you're far away
so it is better to be able to host locally
i mean it was pretty crazy slow from texas to chicago

[00:41]

Webhostbudd

mercutio: i was actually able to find cheap vps's hosted in the same datacenter
or very close
<1ms ping

mercutio

web: would help :)
i don't even remember what chicago to texas pigns are like

Webhostbudd

cifs is very talkative so latency kills it

mercutio

i can do cifs over adsl for some stuff but not others
it can depend on the application
(that's with 10 msec ping)

Webhostbudd

interesting

mercutio

texas to chicago is about 20 msec
so yeah it's not very latency tolerant at all

up_the_irons

dang, more lag...

mercutio

i thought it was just the window sizes in the client though

up_the_irons

good thing i have xchat open in another window

mercutio

that was to isntall opensolaris
no-one has opensolaris as an install option on dedicateds :/

Webhostbudd

opensolaris is dead.....
now, if you said oi or smartos

mercutio

this was a few yeras back

Webhostbudd

oh
well, ovh has oi and smartos on their dedi's

mercutio

7:59pm up 673 day(s), 20 min(s), 1 user, load average: 0.01, 0.00, 0.00

Webhostbudd

then again they image nearly everything because they are such a large operation

mercutio

it was about that long ago
oh it was longer ago than that acutally
there wsa an outage

Webhostbudd

damn, is that actually an opensol box?

mercutio

yeh

Webhostbudd

impressive

mercutio

how so?

Webhostbudd

i dunno, i'm not usually one to have more than 180 days uptime

mercutio

why do you reboot?

Webhostbudd

operating system updates

mercutio

SunOS zone6 5.11 snv_134 i86pc i386 i86xpv
there hasn't been any opensolaris updates since then

Webhostbudd

exactly

mercutio

heh
but yeah

Webhostbudd

OI is pretty good from what i hear

mercutio

i've never had any stability issues with it
well it's got zfs
it's running xen
you can snapshot virtual machines
and send them across the world

Webhostbudd

yea, it's pretty awesome

mercutio

and in essence more a virtual server around the world with very short downtime

Webhostbudd

I'm excited to see where smartos goes

mercutio

basically.. you snapshot, send the data, snapshot, send the updated data, shutdown, snapshot again send the updated down, bring up

Webhostbudd

yep

mercutio

that's assuming the first send is done without paying attention to how long it takes at all
ie in the backgrund

Webhostbudd

mhmmm

mercutio

so the first one takes forever depending on your net speed
the second one is pretty quick
the third one is really quick

Webhostbudd

of course

mercutio

yeh, smartos is intersting

Webhostbudd

i like that they have kvm up and running on the illumos kernel

mercutio

tbh, i'm really confused about what makes sense with virtualisation these days
i like that too
but
i'd rather not have to use vnc...
i much prefer xm console

Webhostbudd

I'm sure spice could be easily ported

mercutio

so that's one issue
i've done kvm on openindiana
with windows

Webhostbudd

bad?

mercutio

well
it takes a hile to figure out how to install virtio drivers in windows
while
i've done windows in esxi before too and it's less confusing
also there's like no management interface or anything in openindiana

Webhostbudd

well, vmware straight up gives you installers

mercutio

meaning you have to figure out things like to set the mouse to a tablet thingy

Webhostbudd

yes, that is a big problem

mercutio

(that's one of the things that irked me )

[00:51]

Webhostbudd

but if you had libvirt on openindiana i think it could be viable

[00:51]

mercutio

hmm
the other thing is about how it allocates ports for vnc
is there some standard way?

[00:51]

Webhostbudd

5900+2
im pretty sure?

mercutio

i think in the end I used ssh -C -X
i think it's on localhost by default?

Webhostbudd

it should listen on all ports by default

mercutio

how does it increment?
oh?
well i can't really remember
but i prefer hostname and xm console blah
also

Webhostbudd

well, see, i'm used to spice which needs two ports

mercutio

that debug screen with alt-1

Webhostbudd

so it increments by 2

mercutio

or wahtever it was was curious

Webhostbudd

but vnc might now
not*

mercutio

but like it's a pita to eject cdrom

Webhostbudd

mercutio

in xen you can just do attach-disk

Webhostbudd

im used to handling that stuff with libvirt

mercutio

you can do mem-set and change the amount of memory etc
so i still prefer xen myself :)
from a "having to maintain it myself" pov
what i liek about kvm is it allows me to run openbsd
openbsd doesn't run that great under esxi or xen hvm

Webhostbudd

yea, bsd's in general don't run well under xen or vmware
although freebsd 9 has the dom0 kernel for xen pv

[00:54]

mercutio

netbsd has domu
i installed it a while back
at home
i have openindiana/xen at home

Webhostbudd

mercutio

that's the other prob with kvm
iot doesn't work on older cpus
like core2duos

Webhostbudd

maybe not on openindiana
it should work fine on linux

mercutio

yeh
mm
yeh i'm wondering if i should use linux
but mostly just cos i want to make that box quieter
and i figure that linux will be better at shutting down the disks...

Webhostbudd

yes

mercutio

i could run openindiana in kvm?
on linux?

Webhostbudd

i would think so

mercutio

or xen i suppsoe

Webhostbudd

i've never tried OI on kvm
kvm runs almost anything though
i haven't had anything break in kvm

mercutio

and then psas through the ethernet card

Webhostbudd

try it

mercutio

yeah
i have to upgrade it first :/

Webhostbudd

heck, if you want an easy kvm solution try proxmoxve

mercutio

to sommething that'll do vt-d

Webhostbudd

they do a pretty good job

mercutio

well i mostly just want a file server
with some virtual hosts running on it
solaris makes a good file server

Webhostbudd

yes it does

mercutio

iscsi is stable

Webhostbudd

linux doesn't unfortunately

mercutio

nfs is stable
and cifs is stable
linux it's like iscsi.. uhh.. nfs.. uhh... cifs... oh cifs works on linux!!!!

Webhostbudd

nfs has been fine in my experience
i never really deal with iscsi

mercutio

nfs has been screwy in my experience
although right now i've been having issues with netbsd and nfs
i think it's something to do with not being able to do large mtu in xen
and having a native high mtu

http://postimage.org/image/tjb0z6ifx/

up_the_irons

mercutio: you like iscsi? i've been thinking about doing some experiments with it...

[01:00]

mercutio

the whole multiple mtu's thing on the same network is kind of scary though
up_the_irons: uhh, i /kind/ of liek it.
basically - it completely depends on what you're using it for.
on windows i compared performacne of local disk versus remote disk and iscsi
and the speed was basically the same
gigabit link speed fast single sata disk.
mostly testing games etc :/
but

[01:00]

Webhostbudd

yea, but you are completely saturating gigabit with single disk speed

[01:01]

up_the_irons

i c

[01:01]

mercutio

where iscsi breaks down is if you want to access the same data from multiple hosts
or if you want to match up id's to volumes
it starts getting confusing.
tbh
if you're looking at redundancy for remote storage external sas is simpler.
basically you can have two hsots each access the same san
with short cables.

[01:01]

Webhostbudd

ick

[01:02]

mercutio

and mount the volume on the second host
if the first host has issues
webhost - mm, kind of
webhost: you'd be amazed at how much random dat there is
one of my "ideas" that isn't likely to go anywhere, is i thought it'd be cool to have an iscsi server that keeps track of requests, and does ssd caching
or ssd/ram caching

[01:02]

up_the_irons

mercutio: yeah but what do you export the external sas with?

[01:03]

mercutio

but also has the ability to use a "spare" disk or such, to do big sequential dumps
up: umm SAN has built in "exporting"
i mean those external disk enclosures
i dunno about sas, but i know opensolaris can act as a fibre channel san
but
computers are generlaly less reliable
and that's just another point of failure
mind you disk enclosures will generally limit disk speeds versus a real computer
err burst speeds
up_the_irons: anyway, if you want to do expermients with it windows has built in iscsi client
and opensolaris is real easy to setup iscsi server on
linux is probably not too difficult

[01:03]

up_the_irons

i might play around with opensolaris and iscsi then...

[01:07]

Webhostbudd

i wonder how freebsd handles iscsi

[01:07]

mercutio

gah windows changed my drive letter :/

[01:07]

Webhostbudd

i mean, im pretty sure if you are using zfs it is painless

[01:08]

mercutio

i didn't have it mounted
what's a good test for speed? many files or lage files?

[01:08]

Webhostbudd

both
large files will perform better over a network though
in generally really

[01:08]

mercutio

is starcraft a good test?

[01:09]

Webhostbudd

the iso for starcraft?

[01:09]

mercutio

oh humm it's going a bit slow
nah the installed game
it's from ssd source
oh now it sped up

fwiw it appaers window isn't flushing the cache
it was going 250mb/sec for a while
actually that's probably why it was going slow for a while
and yeah ssd
for source
so it could easily burst read speed up at the start
but it is a hard-disk as destination..
err seagate
3 tb
it's also large mtu
6k

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jdoe

up_the_irons: haha. What I mean is that it's listed on the main page, with no mention of "special" anywhere near it.

[01:45]

up_the_irons

jdoe: it's on the top, in a big yellow box :)

[01:46]

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[01:48]

jdoe

so it is.

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jpalmer

up_the_irons: ahh, didn't realize you'd left the last job. cool! (assuming finances are working out OK)
up_the_irons: in centos6 installer, if you are using the GUI, there is a screen that asks you what installation type you want, and offers to let you add/modify the repos it installs. one of the options is something like "Base" or "minimum" or something along those lines
up_the_irons: if you do that, you'll probably want to make sure you yum install openssh-clients for the users. otherwise they don't get things like scp and such.

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[08:26]

thib

Hi. Does arp networks do volume discounts on storage i.e. something cheaper then .5USD/1Gb if requesting >1TB of additional storage ?

[08:28]

jpalmer

thib: not sure, but the best way to find out, email support@arpnetworks.com

[08:29]

thib

yeah, actually drafting the mail, but when I saw the #arpnetworks on the contact page, thought this might be quicker :)

[08:30]

jpalmer

hehe
up_the_irons: is around quite a bit, but you just missed him by about 20 mins or so

[08:30]

thib

olrite. Well, I'll fire off the mail to though. Thanks!

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jlgaddis

up_the_irons: same username on github? just found powerdns-models

[10:54]

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andol

andol notices that up_the_irons has a yubikey-cli-tools repo...
up_the_irons: Any plans to allow users/customers to auth, for portal or so, using their yubikey?

[13:07]

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[13:12]

up_the_irons

jlgaddis: tnx for the cent info. and yeah, that is my github account. i did powerdns-models during that power week you were gone and I made the Reverse DNS manager
andol: indeed, the yubikey-cli-tools was a fun little util to write. there are no plans for yubikey auth. I was just playing around with MFA :)

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andol

andol is quite fond of his Yubikey, even if it feels more useful for webmail and such which he might want to log into from $random_computer.

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up_the_irons

andol: yeah, Yubikey's are pretty cool. I use one for certain sensitive / destructive actions on our platform.

[14:18]

twobitha1ker

I started using pam_google_authenticator the other day, that's pretty neat

[14:19]

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[14:29]

up_the_irons

twobitha1ker: yeah that looks cool

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[15:00]

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[15:11]

up_the_irons

man, how do you disable user reg in moinmoin?

jdoe

with great difficulty.

up_the_irons

fuck

iih3ro

haha

jdoe

up_the_irons: which raises the question, if you don't want people editing it, why use a wiki?

[15:14]

up_the_irons

jdoe: only trusted users can edit
meaning, i will manually create the users

[15:14]

jdoe

ah.
http://moinmo.in/FeatureRequests/DisableUserCreation works, but it had some side effects iirc.
(it's been a while since I've used moin)

[15:14]

up_the_irons

jdoe: ah tnx

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DaCa

andol: I use a yubikey to log into my openbsd vps @arp from random places, and a crypto-stick to log in from fixed places (which also works for the serial console)

[15:33]

up_the_irons

it's back: http://wiki.arpnetworks.com/wiki/FrontPage
and you can't edit shit
unless you're a registered user

[15:45]

jdoe

brb hax

[15:48]

jpalmer

jpalmer found a pam module for authenticating off of google apps. it works with googles 2 factor auth.
oh, twobitha1ker mentioned it above. nevermind :P (late to the party as always)

[15:53]

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[15:54]

DaCa

DaCa rather prefers to avoid pam when possible
the same goes for google :p
but I must admit googles 2 factor auth is rather neat

[15:55]

Webhostbudd

the google authenticator is a good concept
i mean, yubikeys would be much better if they supported a numerous amount of keys
the nice thing about yubikeys is how rugged they are
and being its own hardware platform does make it more secure

[15:59]

jdoe

uh
does it?
tell that to people using rsa's fobs :P

up_the_irons

lol

Webhostbudd

that's a different story

jdoe

go on.
haha.

Webhostbudd

if they had the same software implementation*
yubico could be broken into, and so could google.....
it's bad for anybody

jdoe

well it's not really.
the issue with RSA is that they kept the seed.

Webhostbudd

yes, that is a major problem

jdoe

... so when that DB was compromised, you could clone arbitrary fobs.
the google authenticator *doesn't* have that problem.
(no idea about yubiwhatevers)

Webhostbudd

neither does the yubikey
each yubikey uses a randomly generated aes key
and technically you can change it yourself with their utility

DaCa

you can generate your own key on the yubikey and choose to not upload it to yubico

[16:03]

Webhostbudd

mhmmmm
well, it's not so much a choose not to upload, but you can't upload
once it is changed you can no longer operate through them

[16:03]

DaCa

you can

Webhostbudd

since when?
i didn't think they would add new keys to their database

http://www.yubico.com/aes-key-upload

andol

Webhostbudd

is this new?
relatively new*
they definitely didn't have this two years ago

andol

Been a availible for a while, but I also remember a time when it wasn't.
(Afraid my memory isn't more exact than that.)

[16:05]

DaCa

jdoe: the problem with google auth is that it requires a smartphone
a smartphone is a computer you don't control

[16:09]

kraigu

or it's just a trinket you'd rather not be bothered with ;)

[16:10]

DaCa

if I would be a malware writer, the google auth app would be my first choice to attack

[16:10]

jdoe

heh, it would have to be awfully targetted.
since on its own, it's just an rng.
there's no requirement (or reason) for it to have any identifying information about what it's for.

[16:12]

DaCa

the private sha1 key (which is used for the OATH-TOTP auth, which is how google 2 factor auth works) is stored on your smartphone, that's the weak link

[16:15]

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[16:17]

andol

DaCa: Yeah, running the Google Auth app on your Smartphone is probably not as secure as $indepedant_device, but on the other hand in most cassed password+google_auth is a big improvement compared just password, and being available as a Smartphone app makes more people likely to use it.

[16:18]

DaCa

andol: I agree completely, it is only my paranoia level which is a bit higher than the average user :)

[16:21]

jpalmer

DaCa: you mean, your password isn't "sex" for everything, including bank info?

[16:22]

kraigu

jpalmer: mine is "God"

[16:23]

DaCa

[16:23]

kraigu

brb changing password

[16:23]

jpalmer

jpalmer thinks.. now I just need to social engineer kraigu's IP's away from him, and I'll be famous like mitnick!

[16:24]

DaCa

Goddess?

[16:24]

jdoe

DaCa: ... right, but from haxing the phone alone, you have no idea what the key is for.

[16:25]

DaCa

jdoe: chances are high it is for gmail if you are using that, and well, access to your email is absoletely your weakest link
think password resets

[16:27]

kraigu

jpalmer: haha. um, well, I have a /29 with ARP, a single IP at home from my ISP, and a /16 at work
jpalmer: good luck with that :D

[16:28]

jdoe

DaCa: think ssh, I'm not talking about email. (And even if I was, there's nothing to link the key to a specific gmail account either)

[16:30]

DaCa

jdoe: ok, if you only use google auth for ssh, and don't ssh from your phone, and leave no traces about the ssh account on the phone, which I think is already a good amount of discipline....

[16:33]

jdoe

... so like I said, "It would have to be awfully targeted" (oops, spelling...)

[16:36]

DaCa

I am not convinced you have to be targetted, computing power is cheap, network is cheap, malware will combine multiple sources of info and try until it hits something
anyway, I am in Europe, hitting hay, good night everyone

[16:38]

up_the_irons

This won't be ready for a few days, but I'm taking requests for beta VMs on a newer VM host model (newer KVM/QEMU, different VM BIOS (SeaBIOS), updated and lower power hardware [AMD instead of Intel], etc...)

[16:42]

jpalmer

up_the_irons: how do we announce our interest?

kraigu

jpalmer: COLD HARD CASH

jpalmer

hehe it's like apple! pay for betas!

up_the_irons

Requirements: 1) You need to already have an available IP for the beta VM, I won't provision additional blocks, 2) I need OpenBSD testers the most, 3) CentOS 6.x testers also needed

kraigu

MS does it too

up_the_irons

jpalmer: just tell me :)

jpalmer

up_the_irons: I'll test CentOS 6 ;)

kraigu

jdoe loves centos :D

jpalmer

and, you can use the .115 IP from my /29

up_the_irons

these VMs are free, but as such, must not take too much of my resources to make (hence, no additional IPs)
jpalmer: which account?
disk will be blank, i want to see how installs from ISOs work out (tests a lot more of the stack)
kraigu: jpalmer: cold hard cash works too :)

[16:45]

kraigu

up_the_irons: I find it often does :D

Webhostbudd

lower power hardware =(

up_the_irons

Webhostbudd: why sad? lower power, but not less powerful

Webhostbudd

oh
alright

jpalmer

up_the_irons: the jpalmer account. I'll test it as much as I can until you end the beta, then we can cancel/kill, it won't do anything that can't be destroyed.

up_the_irons

this thing screams so far, and uses less power than my Intel setups
jpalmer: roger

[16:49]

Webhostbudd

that's surpising, im guessing these intels aren't ivbs?

[16:49]

up_the_irons

Webhostbudd: no, not at all, they are old school Xeon's (socket 771 E5430's)

[16:51]

Webhostbudd

ahhh

up_the_irons

Webhostbudd: i've found that setup to be so reliable (> 900 days uptime on several hosts) that I never switched away. But as that hardware is becoming more scarce, and in light of future proofing, lowering power footprint, etc... I need a newer setup

Webhostbudd

i see how those could be super power hungry

up_the_irons

gotta run, bbl

Webhostbudd

are you using opterons or desktop class apus?

jdoe

the lower-power 8-core opterons are pretty sexy.
I think the newer i-whatever stuff still shits on them in the low end (in terms of 'power' per watt), at the cost of fewer cores... which is presumably a selling point for vps hosting hardware.

[17:04]

mercutio

the e5 6core 12 ht are meant to be "pretty fast"
but
they're not much faster at some things still
for intel i think the cool thing for vps hosting is that the new cpus do aes-ni
i wonder if new amds do that oo
too

[17:07]

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[17:09]

mercutio

bloody windows
amd bulldozer support aes-ni

[17:11]

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[17:43]

jlgaddis

up_the_irons: so powerdns-models makes me wonder if you've built a web frontend to powerdns =)

[17:57]

jpalmer

there are tons of web frontends to powerdns
I used to use 'pweradmin' a long while back.
'poweradmin'

[18:00]

arenlor

Heh, trying to figure out how to use PHP to edit XML (ATOM/RSS specifically), and I'm going, damn it, writing a program in C may be quicker. That should never be your reaction in a high-level language.

[18:03]

iih3ro

haha

[18:04]

kraigu

C is likely safer too, even if you are careless with your pointers :P

[18:08]

jlgaddis

jpalmer: *nod* most of them are fugly though

[18:12]

arenlor

PHP is great if all you want to do is write XML.

[18:13]

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Webhostbudd

arenlor: more like cold fusion

arenlor

Webhostbudd: Eh?

Webhostbudd

oh
nvm

jpalmer

does coldfusion even exist anymore?

[18:15]

Webhostbudd

i doubt it

[18:15]

jpalmer

jpalmer remembers when it was allaire coldfusion, and then got bought by.. was it adobe?

kraigu

jpalmer: sounds about right

Webhostbudd

adibe
yea

jpalmer

jpalmer had several CF 3.0 and 4.0 books