Huh? I have higher latency to ARP than maxamillion did, and VNC is fine for me. I can't see that he's going to be happy anywere, especially since 82ms of his 116ms ping times were internal to his WiMAX provider.
same here, i'm always 170-180ms (UK) and VNC works fine
Woah you get that good from UK?
210 to Australia... It's improved actually.
210 seems very high
it should be more like 170 for australia?
DDevine: yeah, 170-180 isn't too bad (about 15ms of that is my broadband connection)
http://traceroute.optusnet.com.au/?args=www.arpnetworks.com
dsl is about 10 msec latency on top of that i imagine
actually 3g could give you 210 too
mercutio: Could be my wifi.
DDevine: I'm also in the UK and get 140ms on IPv6 and 170ms on IPv4 to ARP, 15ms of each being my DSL
So bob^^'s latency seems about right from here
my latency from work (I work for an ISP) is only 150msec
(that's direct from the core of our network though)
and i get 154ms from home on v6 (via an HE tunnel)
bob^^: Same here. 150ms on v4 from a machine in THN, 130ms on v6. (I also work for an ISP :)
:D
145ms out of our network in THE on v6 :(
interesting, the vast majority of that 145ms occurs inside HE's network
are you a linx member plett? :)
bob^^: We are indeed. AS20712 Andrews & Arnold
Who are you? Do we peer with you? :)
i think we do, yes :)
AS25178, Keycom PLC
Yep, we have v4 and v6 sessions at LINX :)
we do indeed, small world :)
are you going to the next linx meeting?
About a month's time? Windsor?
yup that's the one
I think so, yes. I've registered myself, but we generally don't know who's going until closer to the time
i'm down to go too - fingers crossed there's enough of us left in the office :)
We're based in Bracknell, which is a 20 min train ride from Windsor
ahh not bad at all - we're in Stafford, though I live in Stratford on Avon
bit further for the guys i work with, not so far for me :)
if you end up going give me a shout - i'll come say hi
Will do :)
hang on - was it you guys who had 'the internet' at one linx meeting a while ago?
bob^^: Yeah, that would be us :)
:)
More specifically that would be our MD, Adrian
yeah, that's right - he did a talk on v6, was interesting
more specifically about v6 capable CPEs iirc
Yes, that's one of our common rants. Everything else in the chain from an end user to (say) facebook is IPv6 capable. It's just their DSL router that isn't.
yeah, it's quite frustrating
more frustrating how few ISPs can actually deliver v6 to the house
i'm with Be, no sign of v6 yet at all annoyingly
They are starting to be produced though. We have a £100+ "Billion 7800N" which works fine with IPv6, but at that price it's not one we can just give away to every new customer
i've heard zyxel have quite a bit of v6 capable stuff now including a few home routers
They like to say that they have. The difficulty we have getting hold of them says otherwise.
bob: zyxel are still around?
i thought they made weird modems
yeah, zyxel make all sorts of stuff
weird dialup modems that is
i never see anything zyxel around these days
plett: ahh, not tried actually getting one :)
nor us robotics
US Robotics got bought up by 3com
years ago
ahh
:)
that's a name i've not heard for a long time
v.everything
:)
mercutio: i just bought a zyxel nas for home (their kit isn't brilliant but it's alright for home imho)
i've never seen a home nas that was any good
this one has two bays and does raid etc - only had it a couple of days but so far so good
not gonna set the world alight with it's feature set or performance, but good enough for me :)
bob^^: We have a "ZyXEL P-2612HNU-F1" here in the office for testing, which they sent us this week. It came with an european plug, as they haven't made a UK model yet, required a beta firmware flashing to it to make it even claim to do v6, and then doesn't work.
oh, that's promising then!
speaking of ipv6
whatever happened to the internet having larger muts
mtus
what with ipv6 having higher overhead and all
surely it's time for it to get bumped up a bit
It's stupid though, as all the manufacturers of cheap routers use the same chipsets, and use the chipset manufacturer's canned "build me a firmware" GUI wizard thingy. And that wizard has supported v6 for about 3 years now, but nobody ever ticks the box to enable it
hah, i didn't know that
plett: real
maybe they don't do  it in hardware
larger address family != larger mtu
do cheap adsl modems do checksum offloading etc?
toddf: i know
our customers are all connected over ethernet so (apart from a few on DSL) thankfully we don't have to worry too much :)
but because it's using up more overhead
and that it's not in serious production use
surely it's about time for mtus to rise in size
Yeah. If you've ever wondered why the user interface on cheap routers all look very similar, it's because they _are_ all the same. The "manufacturer" just copies the reference hardware design, cutting as many corners as they can get away with, and then uploads their logo and brandname into the firmware wizard, and ships it :)
i dunno the few modems i've used the gui on have all been radically different
dlink, linksys, tp-link
mercutio: I think you oversimplify the task at getting everybody to participate in the larger mtu crowd
mercutio: jumbo frames would be the only option, and not everything supports them
(assuming ethernet is the technology being used, obv)
toddf: well i'm not saying it's easy, but it's not easy to get ipv6 going either
(and in our case everything core is based on ethernet)
mercutio: Cheap DSL modems/routers do everything in software. These days they are a single IC with combined CPU, ethernet and DSL, but there's still no offloading etc
mercutio: there are larger mtus, they're called jumbograms, and if all os's behaved sanely, you'd set max mtu of your hardware, and 'discover' (path mtu) the max mtu available per remote host, end of story
mercutio: IPv6 is pleanty easy, I've been doing it for 10+ years
toddf: well lots of dsl has mtu < 1500
mss clamping kind of helps
toddf: but it's not really serious yet
mercutio: PPPoE has a default of 1492, unless you have modern enough kit to support RFC4638
discovering max mtu is the key to anything greather than and less than standard mtu size
plett: even in pppoa 1492 is pretty common
ob
on
and then there's ipsec etc
mpls
people running mpls on 1500 byte networks
etc
mercutio: you can say its not serious, but I use it daily for 90% of my traffic, so however you define serious is up to you
toddf: 90%?!
what do you do over ipv6?
mercutio: Really? My only experience with DSL is in .uk , but here all PPPoA is clean 1500
plett: here pppoa is common
mercutio: everything. dns64 / nat64 / even tunnel afs over v6 back to my fileservers, smtp, www, dns, imap, ping, ... etc etc
but the telecoms provider was routing over pppoe afterwards
you'd think they'd just raise the mtu on the ethernet segments
but like when i look at traffic on the net in general
that's not particularly straightforward
lots of people have mtus of 160 etc
you'd have to ensure that everyone you connected to ran the same jumboframe size (again, assuming ethernet)
and that all your kit supported it (not all kit supports jumbo by a long way)
bob: yeah a bit doesn't
maybe it's hopeless
but it seems weird to have 10 gigabit ethernet etc around, and 1500 byte mtus
and even 100 mbit ethernet could handle bigger mtus
increasing mtu would probably be many times more difficult than trying to implement v6 end-to-end :)
most gigabit stuff handles jumboframes
yup you can do jumbo on 100mbit on some kit (extreme networks kit has done jumbo for years)
mercutio: Here, the telco is most often BT. They do PPPoA on the tails from the EU to the exchange, and then trunk it over PPPoE in their backhaul network. They use a 1600 byte MTU for that, which easily fits the 1500 MTU + PPPoE header
plett: well yeh that's the sensible way :)
to my mind the biggest issue with adsl these days is the upload speed though
and annex-m isn't supported here
that's a problem with more than just adsl
mercutio: There are lots of other ways that DSL is deployed, and most of them are less sensible :)
you can congest it really easily
my line is annex m'd but i still only get 1.2mbit up
bob: real
bob: i get 1.2 mbit up without annex m
exactly
it's not as good as you'd think
what do you get without annex m?
i actually need to re-route some cables here, only recently moved in to this flat and the phone point is miles away from the modem (no power near the phone point)
just under 1mbit
mercutio: bob^^ said he is on Be at home. They don't use PPP at all. The ethernet coming out of the DSL modem goes straight onto your LAN, and the default gateway for your desktop machine is on the other end of the cable in the exchange.
bob: i have the same problem
so i'm  using extension cable
indeed plett
it kills 1mbit off my down sync rate
plett: oh weird
Be has been pretty good for me so far - we use them sometimes (buying through Cerberus) for backup links in work
so it's like bridged plett?
like cable etc usually is
i did actually consider going with AA plett :)
bob^^: Good good :)
for the amount my line is used it was a little pricey though :(
(bandwidth hungry housemate0
bob: you "needed" it though?
?
oh it's used a lot you mean?
i thoughtyou meant it was hardly used
oh no, my broadband is pretty heavily used
i use a lot of upload (i back everything up to a colo box at work, etc)
mercutio: I don't know much about how cable is set up. I didn't think it bridged the EU's LAN out to the cable head-end, at least not here in .uk
plett: here they used to have one huge big arp domain
i used to have cable in my old flat
enough to overload most routers
well most of the shit routers that people tend to use
the ones that top out < 30 mbit
there's no cable reselling here
but ther eis for dsl
so cable is expensive
but better technology
ilke i think they upgraded to docsis 3
cable here is priced similarly to dsl on average but we only have one cable provider and no resellers
i don't know why there's so many people keen on ftth
when docsis 3 is good
and has existing cable
cheaper etc
not much of the UK has cable
bob: why are you on dsl then?
ahh ok
there's cable in the town i live in
but not down my street
when i had a little look on the web at cable in UK it looked good
there was virginmedia?
that's always the problem with cable
and like 50 mbit
calbe
yeah, that's it
yup
mercutio: What makes you think cable is a better technology?
it's a good service actually - i used to have the 20mbit cable product, worked great
plett: then what?
I assumed you meant better than DSL
oh cable is more reliable than dsl
like
most people have old shitty wiring
line faults etc are common
dsl routers are usuaally shit
cable has those issues too tbh
Ahh. Okay
and break reasonably often
yeah it doesn't seem to be as often
and it can support higher bandwidth
twice i had to have engineers out to 'fix' the coax between my house and the street cab
bob: oh real?
i've had cable twice
err three times
four times?
shit
but in 6 years total of DSL, had an engineer out once and he had to replace the line... because..........
i've moved around a lot
(And this is a great story)
bob^^: To be fair, no copper in a cable network is going to be much older than 1960. I've seen phone lines that must be 100+ years old :)
anyway, the only problems were with the isp doing transparent proxying
and with the aforemented arp domain issues
there was a fracture somewhere in my line - on hot days the cable expanded and for some reason the fracture 'fractured more' and i lost sync
whereas i've had dsl in multiple places too
so during the summer there were afternoons where i'd get no service :)
and had problems with drop outs line noise, problems when it rains etc etc
plett: very true - and cable won't have the MK-style alumninium lines either ;)
ripping off the bell wire here can be a big improvement
and docsis 3 can do 100mbit+
ftth can do anything at all though
ftth is expensive though
bob^^: Ironically, it's the older phone lines that are more reliable for DSL - over the years as copper prices have increased, the wires have got thinner and thinner :)
fttc i agree though i don't really see the point - surely easier to concentrate on ftth
it costs a lot of money to run the fibre etc
so if ther'es already cable
yeah plett, very true!
it seems pointless to run fibre
i could get 50mbit down 25mbit up with docsis 3 today. I just don't want to pay $384/mo for it.
some of our customers are on 50mbit down/50mbit up
here they're doing vdsl
which uhh
...but they're delivered over straight ethernet so that's pretty easy and cheap to do :)
hasn't ahppened properly yet
mercutio: DOCSIS 3 can do 100Mb, until a second person in the same broadcast domain (typically several thousand houses) wants to use it at the same time. At that point you have to share your 100Mb :)
yeah, our FTTC is vdsl for the last mile
and there were plans for fibre i think, but people are concentrated on available bandwidth rather than performance/reliability/latency/international transit etc etc
plett: it does over 100Mb total though doesn't it?
cable here was 15mbit
it was always pretty good for those speeds nationally
international it was fucked
especially if used web
because it hit a transparent proxy with small window sizes
which tended to get evening peformance degredation etc etc
leading to the "bittorrent is fast but web is slow" dilemma.
which also happens on congested networks without shaping/qos
so peopla re like - can pull line rate with bittorrent - it must be the remote servers.
is transparent proxying used in the UK?
Depends on the ISP
In our case, we don't do any proxying, filtering or shaping. IP packets in == IP packets out
i reckon it actually makes sense for international stuff
it used to happen on cable here mercutio, but i think they've (mostly?) stopped now
plett: we're the same
much easier and fairer imho
Indeed
fairer?
you pay an ISP to transit packets from A to B
if they interfere with the packets in-flight that doesn't seem very fair
hmm
what do you  think about explicit proxies?
i don't see the point these days
ihmo, there is no need for proxying today
because cdns are used more?
because transit/peering are so cheap and content is normally local through a CDN
heh
transit is expensive here
the things that really eat bandwidth aren't cachable anyway... eg youtube
i'm in new zealand
it's cheaper to just buy more connectivity than to build a proxy cluster
ahh, that would be an issue then :)
lt: google provide caches
actually that's true, they do indeed
bob: i think there can be higher performance, when it's done proeprly.
google will happily drop a cache node in to your network if you meet some criteria and don't mind giving them half a rack and some power
yaeh it's some amount of sustained traffic, depending on your country
i disagree, i'm really not a fan of proxying at all
lowest in south america i seem to recall
highest in US
well they brand it as a cache... but isn't it really just a cdn node?
LT: it's a cache
it forwards along to the closest peer
http://ggcadmin.google.com/ggc
unless it's already downloaded it before then sends it direct to user
blurry.... a cache that only works for google stuff, is kinda different to a traditional cache
it's a smart idea
I don't see it's much different from an akamai box
LT: it's pretty similar?
yeah, it's not really
It's more of a dynamic CDN
oh
it's the same as akamai
just for different content
however - if google+ catches on, it might be good for users and for ISPs
it really depends if you have peering to a google node directly or not
whether it's worthwhile
yeah
ilke don't google peer over linx for you guys?
yeah. it's sensible enough... but I got the impression you were talking about sticking all http through a proxy, which is a slightly different beast
We already peer with Google at LINX and LoNAP, so already have zero bandwidth costs for traffic to them
hehe
i can't remember if we peer with google or not
we peer with a GGC on MaNAP
(or whatever it's called today)
they have an open policy don't they?
bob^^: Edge-IX, I think
yes, we peer with google on linx now too
so yeah, our traffic to google is free too
that's the one, Edge-IX :)
that said
if you were starting to congest your peering link
And, for UK networks, Google server content from their Ireland datacentre, so it's relatively low latency too
you could get google cache
mercutio: you'd just get a private interconnect
bob: oh true
that's another way to go
it'd be nice if google was in nz :)
they must have a presence there? or in australia?
australia
nz<-> australia connectivity isn't amazingly cheap
it's the same monopolistic cable that runs to US
just different segment on it
hmm, it is interesting to see different peoples opinions
i've been working on an explicit proxy mesh system to accelerate web browsing
by routing to a proxy near the end destination
and keeping persistent connections open to the proxies
reduces latency etc etc
In the case of NZ, international traffic is always going to be expensive and high latency, just because of geography and the speed of light. The only way round that is to either serve content from local servers, or do caching
plett: yeah - but - i've found that NZ<->UK is extra shit
it goes via the US
mercutio: It mostly goes via USA?
Yeah
and so it's like 260 msec minimum
but
web sites won't send you more than like 4k of data in one round-trip-time
so it's like  .. 4k.. 8k. . 16k..
etc etc
assuming no packet loss
The other route would be via Asia, and taking an over-land route to europe
but on top of that in my testing, it seems some uk sites are slow etc too
plett: asia routing is /messy/
Indeed
plett: that's the way planes fly though
so sometime in the distant future it may work that way
I'm not surprised that the BGP hop count is lower for traffic via USA than via Asia
in my testing, i've found that guardian.co.uk is faster on average than bbc.co.uk
but then i've tried curl frm a uk host to bbc.co.uk
and i find weird 200 msec delays etc
seemingly randomly
strange
even with a 2msec ping or something
oh is that not normal?
plett: There is a lot of countries in APAC... lots of hops.
mercutio: I've not seen that here
plett: things don't go in a direct line
oh, i only have one uk host
so maybe it's that host
but latency doesn't seem to spike
time curl --compressed http://www.bbc.co.uk/> /dev/null
like what's that say for you?
real	0m0.083s
user	0m0.004s
sys	0m0.000s
oh that's fast
right now i got 1 second, 113 msec, 130 msec, 60 msec, 131 msec, 130 msec
from nz it's way worse though
That's from my desktop in the office, which is gig-e or higher all the way to the bbc
1.981, 1.920
1981 msec that is
for what, 25k of data
then you have all the images etc etc
From my DSL at home:
real	0m0.179s
user	0m0.008s
sys	0m0.008s
0.016u 0.008s 0:00.18 5.5%288+1668k 0+0io 1pf+0w
(from work)
from my proxy is 990 msec, 726 msec
i think bbc has low ttl
on dns
from home dsl:
real	0m0.315s
user	0m0.000s
sys	0m0.020s
hmm
315 msec is ok
(i'm using my connection atm to watch f1 free practise over iplayer too!)
2 seconds isn't :)
wow your guys times look diff to me
curl --compressed http://www.bbc.co.uk/ > /dev/null  0.01s user 0.00s system 7% cpu 0.130 total
like mine just shows on one line
i suppose that's bash
my colo is freebsd and my desktop at home is ubuntu
probably just differences in 'time'
Differences in the time command, I would expect. My examples were both Ubuntu
hmm i get the same on linux and openbsd
this was freebsd: 0.016u 0.008s 0:00.18 5.5%288+1668k 0+0io 1pf+0w
linux being ubuntu
it must be the shell i think
i'm using zsh
yeh freebsd is hard to read
csh on freebsd, bash on ubuntu
not if you know what you're looking at hehe
yeh i rekcon it's the shell
heh i usd freebsd 10 years ago
for a bit
then i ran into probelms with it and switched to openbsd
oh, time -p on freebsd should give a POSIX comliant output
as a desktop
etc etc
i went to freebsd cos i thought it was meant to make a better desktop or something
nah, no way
but i actually found openbsd worked better as a desktop even
i shifted cos freebsd corrupted data on me though
it's not designed for desktop at all - it's usable, but far from ideal if you want multimedia
yeah, it didn't
that'll have been hardware
:)
mm
it was like a k6-2 or somtehing
i think it's cos i was using ata66
and it had some timing problem or something
but seriously openbsd was a lot simpler than freebsd
like i was meant to update freebsd with cvsup
and openbsd was cvs
openbsd and freebsd are pretty similar from a config point of view
and updating openbsd proved much simpler
freebsd is cvs too - cvsup just makes it easier
and like i had to setup networking or something
(plus there's freebsd-update now!)
and like manpages on openbsd were MUCH better
yeah, freebsd won't hold your hand
i found freebsd way more complicated
openbed had /etc/rc.conf
etc
and you could read the files
so does freebsd :/
and they made sense
then freebsd seemed to do similar things
but have like 3x as much stuff
:)
but yeah, i've been meaning to try freebsd again now
freebsd-update? Does that mean you can finally do binary updates?
that i'm more used to it
yeah plett
usd to these things
freebsd's had that for a while now
but freebsd wouldn't run in virtualbox
virtualbox had some issues with freebsd but i think they're sorted now
hmm i think i was trying 8.2?
it was quite recently
it may have been a beta
hmm
maybe i should dl again now
i have vmware on this machien aynway
i should try netbsd out again too
ah, i think it was virtualbox that was fixed
netbsd confused me a bit 10 years ago i remember
yeah, netbsd is not particularly obvious
but vmware will work out of the box?
i was suprrised that openbsd was obvious tbh
yeah - though there were issues with vmware and timing on freebsd
i like didn't want to try it at first because it was designed towards security
no idea if those are fixed, i never actually had them but i know people who did
and i wanted speed
but i actually foudn openbsd faster than freebsd
for simple things like loadign xterms
bringing up man pages etc
not exactly heavy usage
you could tweak freebsd if you had the patience
but in general that isn't needed
now if xterms come up slowly there must be some kind of hardware problems
or a scheduling issue if the box is doing other stuff too
oh or linux with it's screwed up hard-disk stuff now days
or that :)
linux always feels 'laggy' to me compared to freebsd
have you used linux recently?
yeah, i use ubuntu on all my desktops
i've used it on more than one machine
but i don't use it on servers
and you extract a huge tarball
or mocve lots of files or aynthing
on a desktop
and it'll drag like hell
this ubuntu box has an ssd so i don't really notice disk access now hehe
like i don't know how they let that happen?
ah this box has ssd too
<3 ssd
yeh ssd is ok
i dunno i also have 16 gig ram now
i just upgraded
it's crepey in a way
this desktop only has 2gb, i REALLY need more
i got so used to things going really slowly all the time
with linux?
yeah
i used linux ona  laptop with 2gb fo ra while
recently
it's not bad, it just sometimes feels like it could use a bit more
it had dual boot windows 7
seriosuly windows 7 was better on 2gb ram than linux by far
i've got two spare slots and ram is cheap for another 2gb so i'll order it when i get paid
like it'd keep going into swap hell
ddr3?
i'm also keen to stop this box swapping given it's swap is on ssd
nah, ddr2 i think - this thing is a bit on the old side :)
ahh yip
that's why i upgraded
amd x2 5600+
cos ddr3 ram is way cheaper
yeah
i tried just jumpign frmo 4 gig to 6 gig
i want to upgrade before ddr2 goes up too much more
and then i tried using visual studio
i dunno how anyone copes with visual studio
it's so resource hungry
why not just get new mbd/cpu?
you know you can get really cheap sandybridge cpus
like there's ones even cheaper than i3
dual core
just don't need the extra performance tbh
this thing will do me another couple of years at least
hmm
lower power use
most of my work i do on my laptop which has 4gb of ram anyway
oh yip
and it's all brand new (5 months old or sth) so it's alright for performance :)
i just want to buy an ssd for it nowt oo
yaeh
it gets like that doesn't it
you use non ssd computers
and you're like how do they cope
and then you realise you got an ssd 6 months ago
and had coped for years
hehe yeah
ahh shit
4 gig?
i don't know what freebsd file i want
yeah
oh 4gig iso
for freebsd i meant
sec
nah - get the mini iso
what's pc98?
it'll download anything else you want during install, saves wasting bandwidth
is that like win98?
ahh cool
nah, it was a pc standard from 1998
no one does it anymore
i386-bootonly?
except freebsd?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_System_Design_Guide
unless you're running on 64 bit hardware, yup
is 64 bit or 32 bit better for vmware?
it's i5-2500k
32 bits for vmware i suspect
not honestly sure - i don't virtualise much tbh :/
so should do either
i386 is probably smaller
leaner
wtf
can't find the dl link
oh there
http://torrents.freebsd.org:8080/stats.html?info_hash=e86c8124f8c942a3b3bff101b97d908bf26c5b73
i see freebsd is staying professional looking
freebsd is pretty professional, it's used by a lot of large corporations
real?
oh yeah
i thought freebsd had kind of died for some reason
yahoo use it for example
ahh everyone says that on slashdot, it's not true at all
heh i remember people used to say freebsd was using for lots of porn sites
as examples of "heavy traffic web sites"
nah this isn't about slashdot
it's more i just never hear about anyone using freebsd
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2011/07/08/most-reliable-hosting-company-sites-in-june-2011.html
i don't hear of much openbsd or opensolaris eitther
check out the top 10 most reliable hosts
using both openbsd and opensolaris at work
(and linux)
wow
how did windows get on that list?
hehe no idea
i've actually never heard of any of those providers
cool it's installing
they're all pretty big
yeh looked at top 40 and had heard of more of them
maybe just my luck
got it installed it didn't even setup ssh hmm
you missed a step during install then
because one of the questions is 'do you want to enable ssh login' towards the end
:)
oh
the installer screwed up
because i went to some options page
then i tried to eit
then somehow it trieed to isntall on top itself so i did exit
found it though
easy to enable after though
add sshd_enable="YES" to /etc/rc.conf
then /etc/rc.d/sshd start
it'll generate keys and fire it up
yeh
but now it won't let me ssh in
do you need to create a non-root user?
are you trying as root?
ys
only linux is stupid enough to let you ssh as root by default ;)
you can always edit /etc/ssh/sshd_config to allow root login if you're feeling brave
i don't think that's stupid
or it's a local box or whatever
well what's one username that exists on all unix-like systems?
root
that's a pretty easy start for an attacker
i can't su either
gah
so i need to add to wheel?
if you prevent logins on root then they also have to find the usernaem, which complicates things a lot
yeah
you need to be in wheel to su
most people will install sudo as soon as they're installed
then you don't need to be in wheel
how do i install sudo?
is there pkg_add
?
# pkg_add sudo
pkg_add: can't stat package file 'sudo'
hmm
i suppose it needs to know where it is
pkg_add -r sudo
will fetch it remotely
ahh ocol
ok not too bad
or you can use ports (portsnap fetch extract && cd /usr/ports/security/sudo && make install clean) or something
yeh it said ports tree was over 400 megs
(you only need the portsnap fetch extract if you don't already have a ports tree :)
yeah, it's big, but VERY well worth having
i dunno
you can always download original source tarballs
i installed kernel source
sticking with ports is a smarter move
but that was all
meh, you won't really need kernel source
gah
it keeps going to ftp.freebsd.org
you can override that, sec
PACKAGEROOT iirc
ah, yeah: http://www.rainingpackets.com/pkg_add-specifying-a-mirror-server/
no export command?
depends on your shell
setenv if you're still in csh
chsh -s <newshell> if you want to change
# pkg_add -r zsh
Fetching ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports/i386/packages-8.2-release/Lates                                                                   t/zsh.tbz... Done.
Fetching ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports/i386/packages-8.2-release/All/libiconv-1.13.1_1.tbz... Done.
Updating /etc/shells
# zsh
zsh: Command not found.
rehash
what's with that?
wait are you still running sh?
oh shit
wow
no idea
i have zsh now
# zsh
zsh: Command not found.
# rehash
# zsh
[Fri 11/07/22 22:19 NZST][pts/0][i386/freebsd8.0/8.2-RELEASE][4.3.10]
<root@:~>
csh
csh needs a rehash to reload paths
now do
which zsh
and chsh -s /path/to/zsh
however
*however*
cool
got it changed
do not do that for root
chsh -s zsh rowrked
leave root on csh or sh
why not?
because you may note that zsh has probably gone into /usr/local/bin
and not /bin
yeh it has
so copy it over?
as a result, if you end up needing to rescue, you may not be able to mount /usr/local
i'd rather have a shell that "export" works in
yeh it's just a test system
no don't copy it over, just don't use root
but maybe can find static compile of zsh
create yourself a user that has sudo
:/
that's nasty
mm
i hate prefixed sudo over everything
i reckon sudo is less ecure
the chance of you needing a recovery shell are minimal, but on a production box it's a really smart idae
then just using root
that's a dirty linux hack
i find sudo useful when i don't trust people
it can be locked down
hmm
giving someone root on the other hand cannot
i dunno i'd rather not give someone a shell i don't turst :)
well of course :)
sudo is less secure in that it's just the normal user's password which has to be leaked/stolen in order for an attacker to get root access, rather than both the user and the root password
i suppsoe there is that
but sometimes you have no choice
as long as sudo is locked down, it's handy
plett: yeh
and passwords? keys ;)
and also it encourages going frmo normal user to root
so if someone hacks into a normal user account they can get root
and when it's a box you don't use as a desktop or anything
But if you have to give someone root access, doing it via sudo allows you to lock it down greatly, and get a log of each time it's used
exactly
you may as well just ssh in as root
and not as root
I agree that sudo is insecure but I have been reliably informed that it can be locked down pretty tight
depending on what you're running
sudo has its uses
i don't believe in using it all the time (like, say, ubuntu tries to insist on)
that's pointless
now i can set this packageroot i suppose
I have witnessed peoples servers getting 'rooted' purely from sudo.. but then again those people were re-using passwords from public shell boxes on their own private server
go figure :)
ugh :)
it's amazing what goes on really
indeed
     option is invoked.  An example setting would be "ftp://ftp3.FreeBSD.org".
Personally I use sudo all the time on my personal boxes. I am the only user on the box, and my password is a secure one
hmm
ok that's not so hard
now i need to find close mirror
plett: i'm the same tbh
it's just me being lazy and not wanting to type two passwords too
bob^^: You can set sudo up as NOPASSWD, so it just does it without prompting for your password, if you wish ;)
that's how i have it :)
dirty, but i'm quite happy with it on my personal stuff with just me using it
wtf
vim is installing ruby?
and x stuff
argh
tcl, ruby, hicolor-icon theme
python, perl
vim-lite
is what you want
oh
and this is why you want the ports tree
i tried to google
you can customise stuff before it installs then
use ports.
SECURITY NOTE: The VIM software has had several remote vulnerabilities
discovered within VIM's modeline support.  It allowed remote attackers to
execute arbitrary code as the user running VIM.  All known problems
wow?!
y'know it seems pretty snappy
other than being a bit confusing
ok suppose should use ports tree
mercutio: it is very easy, just use this -> http://pastebin.com/XBCqFdWe   ... save it as /etc/csup-ports.conf
then run
i found a tarball
csup /etc/csup-ports.conf
nah just do this
that's not cvsup is it?
i have bad memories of cvsup
no, it is csup
yeh forget cvsup
you don'tneed it
csup is in base
do what I said and it will download the ports tree painlessly
:)
should i extra tarball first?
or not bother?
forget the tarball
nesta: are you serious?!
portsnap
!!
portsnap fetch extract
ok downloading
job done
way quicker too
different strokes
:)
hehe true enough :)
i dunno i'm not really in a rush
i've got curl and vim
and ssh
since portsnap arrived i haven't gone back, i love it :)
what more could i need?
this is why *nix rocks
many different paths
exactly
pick what you want and do it the way you like
actually i wanted tmux
have you guys tried tmux?
not personally but i've heard it's good
i still use screen
mercutio: What makes it better than screen?
plett: the code isn't dirty
it's in base isn't it?
I still <3 screen
it doesn't seem to be in freebsd base
it's in openbsd base
no bob^^ its not
ah, that's right, it's openbsd that ships with it
mercutio: do you code?
there was talk of putting it in freebsd on a mailing list a while back
nesta a little
I've not looked at the source for either, but screen works well enough for me
i used to code
then i got slack
i was trying to do some modifcations to squid today
i hate squid's code
but like seriously, when code is disgusting it makes me not want to use the program
tmux++
used screen for years, but haven't used it once since i first installed tmux
actually some gnu code is pretty disgusting
jlg: ditto
i just used it in case my shells died normally with screen
but with tmux i find myselfa actually using multiple windows
once i got my .tmux.conf how i wanted it, it just rocks
i use it to run irssi
brb!
i liek it how it updates the line at the bottom with what's running in the shell
mercutio: yeah, makes it handy when you're waiting on something to finish
the visual notifications too
i dunno it just seems like it did what screen set out to do but properly and nicely and cleanly
oh yeah
like i always know hwen i have mail
cos it'll inverse the colours
years ago i used to be a text mode junky
and i had a computer without much resources
i still am =)
and i hated screen with a passion
but still used it because it was handy
i spend probably 90% of my time staring at terminals
but like you could seriously notice it slowing down and bloating up
back then i was like "why's curses so slow?"
i was like used to dos etc
where text was fast, then everything in text moed was slow
but some things way slowe than others
linux 2.1 sped up text mode a lot
jlg: oh i actualyl used to use text mode
not X
with terminals
then i shifted to ion
and X
but mostly so that i could use firefox occasionally
it wasn't firefox
netscape navigator
then mozilla
netscape navigator was really gay
motif is slow too
yep, on my linux box at home i just use an 80x50 console. when i need a gui (for chrome or something), i fire up awesome.
it looked better than tcl/tk
i'm a total cli nerd
jlg: ever heard of svgatextmode?
yeah
jlg: i rebound my keys
so i could have more virtual consoles
like 30 of them
and then i had single number pads keys to hop desktops
or alt-ctrl
modifieriers
to get 10 more on each
then like i hacked getty
to "autoload" programs
on various virtual desktops
virtual screens i should say
so like i booted my computer
and up would come 6 web browsing esesions
on like 78 9
4 5 6
where 4 5 6 were google
7 was like slashdot 8 was freshmeat, 9 was lwn or something
then 1 2 3
would start shells in download directory
then like alt-1 to 9 etc
would start in ~/src
etc etc etc
it works well
worked
in the end i had the getty so you pressed enter to start a shell
cos shells took up ram etc
and soemtiems i closed them
cos i had a puny machine
then i wrote my own irc client
cos epic/bitchx etc were memory hogs
and took up like 2 megs+
god
i started ranting there
2 megs memory now days is like nothing
holy hell man, give your enter key a break!  =)
hahah
i gotta go into scrollback to read what you said while i was gone for a minute :P
heh
i wonder what memory use is like these days
ben      21805  0.2  0.3   7896  2752 pts/9    S+   Jun19 102:30 epic4 mercutio irc.freenode.net
it didn't get much worse
wow, epic4
i haven't seen that name in a long time
linux bloated up from libc5 to glibc
hmm it's what i used before i wrote my own irc client, and what i went back to
it's ok, not wonderful, not terrible
i used irssi once a little bit, it actually seemed ok
yeah, i moved from ircii to epic to irssi
epic, mutt, and vim are probably the programs i've used the longest
i moved ircii, epic, fade, epic
my irc client was called fade
it was real simple
heh, irssi, mutt, and vim are probably the three i use the most
like 28k binary or something
used readline
and other than that just as basic as you can get pretty much
no dcc, etc etc
always logged to a file set on command line
set nick and server name like in epic
just on command line
but it managed to make my machien swap less
what made you move to irssi?
nfi
it's been a long time ago
i used it for a brief moment and it seemed to have more sensible keys i seem to recall
gah i'm going to try it now
brb
initially, i think it support for perl scripting
i had to type /server irc.freenode.net ?
ben      17165  0.1  0.5  11128  4512 pts/9    S+   23:02   0:00 irssi mercutio irc.freenode.net
and it does use a bit more ram
not that it really matters
jlgaddis  1705  0.0  1.1  54532  9064 pts/2    S+   May27  19:17 irssi
i'm in about 15 channels across 4 servers, though, if that makes a difference
rob       2938  0.0  1.1 16040 11012  p1  S+   26Aug10 342:45.11 irssi
three servers and 16 channels total for me
bob^^: heh, reboot often?  :P
nope
:)
what about this one:
12:14PM  up 1823 days, 38 mins, 2 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
oh you run one instance for multiple servers?
nope, that's just an old box we keep now for uptime records lol
oh you mean on irssi
yeah
i have three servers configured inside my irssi
anyway - got to go for lunch, back shortly
bob^^: 1942 days, as recorded when we shut it down: http://flickr.com/gp/plett/99B94r
I'm not sure whether to be more proud of the reliable power etc, or embarased that a box that old was still running
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jlgaddis/4340673033/in/photostream
we "found" that server one day
jlg: wow
can you call it a server when it runs windows?
nowhere near you guys and your 1800-1900 days, but i thought it was pretty damn impressive for a windows box
mercutio: according to our windows guys, yeah
bob^^: you use extreme stuff right? have you ever seen show odometers come out with crazy values for days in service?
LT: only when they've been up for crazy days ;)
but no, i don't think so - what switch?
plett: i know what you mean about being embarrased about boxes with uptimes like that :)
bob^^: as an example  Slot-2         : X450a-24x                19713  Apr-28-2007
hmm, no, that is odd though
i don't have any x450's though, only x350 and 48si these days :(
LT:
Switch     : X350-24t                  1141  Jun-05-2008
which seems okay
all the x350's i have access to from here look reasonable
most of ours are right, just the odd one here and there. even in a single stack all purchased together there are some correct and some not
that's odd
have you reported to extreme?
(oh - different xos or anything like that maybe?)
can't stack them unless they're all the same version... 12.3.4 something or other
ahh okay, like a blackdiamond with two msms then
makes sense
pretty much... the code seems to think it is a chassis half the time, stack members even get called slots in most places
hah, not surprising i suppose, they're probably trying to keep the config sane
so much interesting scrollback i'm going to have to read later...
my extreme:
                                        Service  First Recorded
Field Replaceable Units                 Days     Start Date
---------------------------------------------------------------
Switch         : X350-48t                    49  Jun-02-2011
XGM2-1         :
up_the_irons: ping?
What constitutes as a "long-time customer?"
like, 10 billion years
hmm
I can't mount my second drive (/usr/ports)
mount -tauto /dev/ad1s1 /usr/ports says "Operation not supported by device"
any ideas?
ah..got it.
mount -r.
hmm or not
Ok..mount without any flags worked.
Bleh
are there any issues with kvr11?
up_the_irons: not able to VNC into kvr11
up_the_irons: our vm seems to be down too
amdprophet: log into the portal,  and boot your vps.
hard shutdown,  wait 1 min,   boot.
jpalmer: will try
jpalmer: that worked, thanks!
np