#arpnetworks 2011-05-10,Tue

portertech

up_the_irons: can't reach the arp networks website :/

up_the_irons

portertech: give it time, i'm adjusting some routes

portertech

up_the_irons: ack

up_the_irons

portertech: paste a traceroute, it should work by now
i can get to it fine from here

[02:51]

eyecue

there it goes

[02:52]

up_the_irons

yeah it shouldn't have bounced for more than a minute
i put in an aggregate route yesterday, more than enough time to propagate

portertech

up_the_irons: working

up_the_irons

and i took the more specifics out just now

portertech

(japan)

up_the_irons

portertech: cool

eyecue

redundant network and upstream links ?

up_the_irons

eyecue: you ask as if there is an alternative? ;)

[02:54]

eyecue

alternative/ideal/bestpractice and reality are often two different things :d

[02:54]

portertech

up_the_irons: is the dashboard a sinatra app?

[02:56]

up_the_irons

portertech: no, the main website is sinatra, the portal is Rails
eyecue: indeed, true

portertech

up_the_irons: neat

up_the_irons

yeah

eyecue

eyecue mumbles something about django
:D

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[03:01]

portertech

up_the_irons: yay, I'm an arp networks customer once again! :P
just sent my order

[03:03]

up_the_irons

portertech: nice; how is the latency from japan?

[03:03]

portertech

currently surf'n on 4G, not really a good indication, I'll know more once I have an arp vps provisioned

[03:04]

up_the_irons

ah ok

[03:05]

eyecue

up_the_irons; is there an alternative to 95th percentile billing and/or volume bandwidth across multiple servers?

[03:05]

up_the_irons

eyecue: as in? those two are all i've ever heard of

[03:05]

eyecue

up_the_irons; two questions, can you do average usage billing, and second, can i purchase a block of bandwidth as a seperate line item to utilise across multiple servers, instead of a XXXgb block per server
up_the_irons; rationale behind the question, we currently have 15 servers, 5 of which run high network utilisation workloads for 6 hours a day, and 0 for the rest of it, and the other 10 run more evently distributed network loads

[03:07]

up_the_irons

eyecue: bandwidth is already a separate line item (1 vps can use all of it, and the others can use none, etc...). i don't do average usage (other than 95th)
eyecue: which 6 hours of the day? :)

[03:09]

eyecue

95th percentile works out to almost twice as expensive for us for the servers that burst for that short period a day, and the bandwidth that comes along with the other 10, goes under utilised over the month
up_the_irons; umm, nighttime at gmt+10

[03:10]

up_the_irons

how high is the utilization?

[03:10]

eyecue

*looks at zabbix
brb im going to drop :D
vpn fail
15-20Mbps per server x 4 in/out
sometimes 30-50% up on that

[03:10]

up_the_irons: thakns, I'll check it out soon

[03:14]

up_the_irons

G: np
eyecue: i c

[03:16]

eyecue

[03:16]

up_the_irons

eyecue: i'm low on space for colo, but i think someone that would be able to accommodate that is Syminet: http://syminet.com. The owner is Mark Symonds and he's a real cool guy. He buys bandwidth from me too, so it is same quality that I offer.

[03:17]

eyecue

up_the_irons; even vps's ?
or straight physical colo only ?

[03:17]

up_the_irons

eyecue: oh, we're talking vps' here? thought you meant physical servers

eyecue

hopefully recomming some physicals as vps's

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eyecue

no point having a quad core around for 6 hours of usage
not very IO heavy workloads, so its primarily a cpu/ram thing

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[03:19]

up_the_irons

eyecue: i can handle the vps needs; but why do average billing for that, i could give you a bulk discount on total data transer (GB) usage
eyecue: yeah true

[03:19]

eyecue

up_the_irons; sure, i was wondering about flexibility over the billing model
more so than the actual solution :)
i know how hard it is to change in contract :D

[03:19]

up_the_irons

eyecue: generally, i'm flexible, if it makes sense. but i'd rather not create a whole new billing model if i don't have to ;)

[03:20]

eyecue

absolutely, everyone needs to make moneys
in our .au deployment, we pay per month for the physical hardware, and buy a few tb of bandwidth to utilise coming into our distribution switches
up_the_irons; ahh heres a good one, do you charge 95th percentile on the highest of up/down utilisation, or over the sum ?

[03:20]

up_the_irons

eyecue: cacti says: HRULE: |95:bits:0:max:2|

eyecue

up_the_irons

i keep forgetting what that means ;)

eyecue

hehe

up_the_irons

i think it is the higher of the two

eyecue

roger that

up_the_irons

eyecue: where are you located?

[03:25]

eyecue

sydney, au
deployments in bne, au, syd, au, and sfo, us

[03:26]

up_the_irons

nice

[03:27]

ahhh, good ol' BNE :)

eyecue

I love that city, walking alongside the river etc

eyecue

up_the_irons; currently got a large mail infrastructure in US, HA-WWW arch in sydney, and dns services in BNE

want to get back there sometime

eyecue

G: not last year it wasnt (sure you saw the flood coverage)
one of the biggest DC's in the country got literally shutdown

up_the_irons

eyecue: cool

eyecue: yeah, that flood...

up_the_irons

wow

eyecue

up_the_irons; exclusively freebsd

up_the_irons

eyecue: sweet

eyecue: which DC was that?

eyecue

G: AAPT iirc

ahhhh
are they still owned by Telecom NZ? or did Telecom finally offload it to TPG?

eyecue

http://goo.gl/UNDIP
no idea
who knows who owns who these days
check out those google results though ;)

[03:30]

true I guess :)
eyecue: the bit of the CBD I used to work in was pretty much unaffected iirc

[03:30]

eyecue

*nods* i had a server in the Pipe DC on creek st
it was up on a 45 degree street

[03:31]

Creek Street, which one is that again?

[03:31]

eyecue

Pipe Networks

[03:31]

eyecue: no, I meant which street :)
I got the Pipe networks bit :)

[03:32]

eyecue

which street? creek street :D

[03:32]

ohhhh next one over from Edward St

[03:33]

eyecue

yeh, google maps was playing up there o_O

[03:33]

eyecue: Google Maps was giving me nowhere near the CBD

eyecue

yeh same

Redcliff for instances

eyecue

i even tried to redo the query
i got 4034
where are you at at the moment ?

yep, I also got a bunch in the 4030's
eyecue: New Zealand

eyecue

eyecue: I moved back last year

eyecue

hopefully im coming over to Mt Hutt soon for skiing
:D
never seen snow in my life, very excited

[03:35]

I used to work on the otherside of the CBD... North Quay/Herschel Street way

[03:35]

eyecue

ive decided i dont like 95th percentile bandwidth models
:|

[03:35]

eyecue: do you get up to BNE much?

eyecue

useto live there
moved back to syd a few years back
lived in stones corner (near the gabba)

have you seen the Kurilpa Bridge?

eyecue

worked at park road milton

ahhh yep, know Park Road

eyecue

hehe, tank street bridge :D

iirc thats where APNIC were based

eyecue

yah
yup, they were downstairs from us @ APN :]
33 park road *win*

eyecue: I generally refer to it as the Ugly Bridge :)

eyecue

i asked one of the apnic guys in the elevator one day for a /8 :]

eyecue: iirc that's also the building QTAC is/were in right?

eyecue

he laughed
yup

eyecue: haha, thats a great one

eyecue

Red Hat used to also be down Park Road

eyecue

mm, news to me
how long ago ?

eyecue: ummm they shifted from there in 09 iirc

eyecue

ah k

no wait, 08

eyecue

memories :]

I think it was Mid 08

eyecue

ithat was right about the time i was there, ish.

[03:39]

I interviewed at their new place in August/September-ish 08, and started working for them in Nov 08

[03:39]

eyecue

one of the guys i worked with @ APn took this photo of my dd and his best mate in front of la dolce vita :D
i can tell you exactly when we were there
18 august 08 :]
waiting for linky
ahh here we go
http://keithrowell.com/365/2008-08-18.jpg

[03:39]

oh thats right, it wasn't directly on Park Rd, it was off a sidestreet

[03:42]

eyecue

http://keithrowell.com/365/2008-09-17.jpg <-- this ones inside la dolce vita

[03:42]

eyecue: nice

[03:43]

eyecue

[03:43]

But yeah, that Tank Street bridge (imo) is Ugly :)

eyecue

big time

eyecue: what made it worse, was I had to see it litterally every single day

eyecue

:|
where were you working?

I'd say the only day I didn't see it, was the week I was couped up in bed sick as a dog :)
eyecue: North Quay/Herschel Street

eyecue

and I lived on Tank Street

eyecue

wow

I had a very fast commute :)

eyecue

20 a month for a fbsd vps on arp, nice

except I used to walk the long way around the block to get decent coffee :P

eyecue

:)
i drove in after 9:30 to avoid traffic

eyecue: I didn't have that luxury

up_the_irons

eyecue: how did you hear about arp, btw?

eyecue

up_the_irons; mentioned it earlier, @obfuscurity

up_the_irons: btw, liked your tweet about Slicehost, didn't realise they were migrating everyone to RS Cloud

eyecue

uh, jason dixon

up_the_irons

eyecue: oh ok
G: yeah i just heard about it a few days ago

[03:48]

eyecue

up_the_irons; https://twitter.com/#!/obfuscurity/status/67602845507125248
up_the_irons; i thought, if they do obsd, theyll do fbsd

[03:48]

up_the_irons

eyecue: yep :)
freebsd is the most popular OS around here

[03:49]

eyecue

yay:)
oo, 30loops using freebsd for their firewalls, cool.

[03:49]

up_the_irons

portertech: so did you move to slicehost and then come back here? ;)

[03:52]

portertech

I have vps's all over the map (except rackcloud/slicehost atm :P)

up_the_irons

nice

portertech

I've been meaning to drop a few and move back to arp

up_the_irons

anyone know if you can use CARP on a single /30 subnet? I know which HSRP and VRRP, you have to jump through hoops

eyecue

:)
why do you think you couldnt ?
2 usable ?

up_the_irons: for what it's worth, before I asked you about the 2nd VPS, I signed up to Rack Cloud and took a look (really, I only need bursts of a second VPS every now and then, so I thought, all save heaps only pay a few dollars), I was mistaken :)
I could have done it, but it would have been ugly

[03:54]

up_the_irons

G: hah

easier to just do it as a second VPS on ARP

up_the_irons

nice :)

eyecue

up_the_irons; each physical needs its own ip, plus the virtual ip
up_the_irons; thus at least a /29

up_the_irons

eyecue: it's the virtual IP that concerns me. so, you have device A and device B (2 IPs), a broadcast address (1 IP), and network number (1 IP). no room for virtual IP

[03:56]

eyecue

correct
you could proxy arp's, so they could speak
but meh.

up_the_irons: they count powered down, time for costs, and the only way to keep the data w/o hourly charges is to move it to their files thing, and then delete the server (and get a new IP) etc

up_the_irons

so then you can't do CARP on a /30 ;)

so meh

eyecue

correct. ive read at some point that future versions may support it

up_the_irons

G: that's dumb

eyecue

but no specifics

up_the_irons

i c

eyecue

but carp does rock, majorly.
running lagg+carp for our HA inf in sydney
+haproxy+nginx (ssl)
HSRP on the upstreams and for the private lan

[03:58]

ahhh I see CARP is kinda HA...

[03:58]

eyecue

G: its a patent free replacement for VRRP
fail cisco.

[03:59]

ah ha, yep, I recognise it now :)

[04:01]

eyecue

now about that beta freebsd vps ;D

[04:02]

eyecue: Cisco seems to be the perfect example of "Do what I say, but not what I do" :)

[04:02]

eyecue

mm, indeed.

[04:02]

the one thing I really like about Cisco though, is IOS

[04:03]

eyecue

really? :)

[04:04]

eyecue: yeah, when they consistently apply the IOS style through devices, it's a godsend imo

[04:04]

eyecue

fair call
i really wouldnt mind a small l3 cisco switch to play with

[04:05]

eyecue: I had to jump in the deep end w/ two of their Fibre Switches the other year, hadn't touched Cisco stuff for ages, but the basics stuck with me, and it all worked easy as pie

eyecue

i did that with my first 2621XM with one of my old clients

(keeping in mind that I'd only dealt w/ Cisco switches and routers in the past as well)
Ethernet that is

eyecue

howd you find it ?

eyecue: easy as pie
eyecue: sure I had to look at the documentation to understand the specifics, but as they keep the basic syntax and concepts/style the same, it was pretty easy

[04:07]

eyecue

of course, but looking at docs isnt a bad thing
in the same vein as being able to regurg doco isnt necessarily a good thing :)

[04:08]

eyecue: sounds about right

[04:18]

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jlgaddis

up_the_irons: off the top of my head, i think you'll need a 4000/4500/5500/6500 to get that many vlans
unless you go non-cisco, of course

[06:27]

eyecue

oh dear, MS gets skype.

[06:31]

eyecue: as I just said in another channel, hope Facebook is their next target

[06:32]

eyecue

:|
that aint gonna happen :)

sooner trust Microsoft w/ my personal data than Zuckerberg
eyecue: they already own a small portion :)

eyecue

dont have a FB account :)
so i dont have that problem

yeah, I've been meaning to delete mine for ages

eyecue

time for another glass of red
bbs

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[07:59]

subq

thinking maybe i should use nginx as a frontend instead of as complete apache replacement, always such a pain to set sites up with things all ready to roll on apache

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[13:00]

toddf

not that anyone here will be testing ariane's vmmap_sys diff at ARP but me, but I recommend you not do so, a system behaving as if it is 1mhz is not my cup of tea.

[13:01]

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[13:01]

alainb

hello everyone
who do i have to talk to for getting extra ips ?

[13:01]

toddf

alainb: that would be up_the_irons if he's around, but generally those type of requests get shuffled to support@ anyway. prepare for $1/additional v4 IP.

[13:03]

alainb

ok well i just sent a email thanks anyway

[13:07]

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[13:12]

up_the_irons

jlgaddis: yeah i was aware that 4500/6500 do it, but i'm looking for like a 1U solution that isn't $7K+ (4900) ;)

[13:21]

toddf

up_the_irons: you can use CARP on a single IP w/out an IP in the system itself, just expect the BACKUP system can't access the network .. but that should be qed

[13:22]

up_the_irons

toddf: i'd put a management IP on the backup system on a separate interface, so accessing it wouldn't be a problem

[13:23]

toddf

or just do v6 for accessing, and v4 for legacy apps.. *grin*
or if your apps speak v6, don't worry about that /30 ;-)
(not quite clear what is being done, though, so some advice may be irrelevent)

[13:24]

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[13:26]

up_the_irons

toddf: i want to set up some kind of HA (hrsp/vrrp/carp/etc) for customer gateways

[13:27]

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[13:28]

toddf

up_the_irons: ah, then you want something like this:

[13:29]

up_the_irons

up_the_irons listens

[13:30]

toddf

toddf is currently whittling at shellcode, seemed simpler in head than in reality, will be a moment

[13:31]

up_the_irons

[13:34]

toddf

for h in /etc/hostname.vlan*; do id=${h##*vlan}; ( echo "vhid $id pass $(pwgen -s 64) carpdev vlan$id"; egrep "^description|^inet " $h ) > /etc/hostname.carp$id; grep -v "^inet " $h > $h.tmp && mv $h.tmp $h; done
in english, move your 'inet ' stuff from /etc/hostname.vlanX to /etc/hostname.carpX
specifying carpdev in /etc/hostname.carpX in reference to vlanX

[13:36]

up_the_irons

sweet

[13:38]

toddf

note that if you want to do carp with IPv6 I'm currently trying to convince someone to do something about the fact that 'rtadvd carpX' will work, but 'ping6 -c 1 fe80::X%em0' is neccessary upon client's initial bootup or somehow packets don't get to the right place on the router.

[13:39]

up_the_irons

wish i could use it, however, my primary side router is a cisco 4500, so only hsrp and vrrp are my options

[13:39]

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[13:40]

toddf

(probably qed but 'rtadvd' takes a list of interfaces, don't run one instance per interface .. *grin*)

[13:41]

up_the_irons

i c

[13:43]

toddf

which also makes me curious, tell me if this is asking too much info, but do you have anything non default on your openbsd v6 router? typical v6 routers respond to a ping6 of ff02::2%em0 but yours doesn't..

[13:43]

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[13:47]

toddf

I will try to reproduce with qemu -serial tcp:... but if anybody can point out what is required to send a break sequence over conserver to an ARP vps.. I'd be much obliged ;-) the ^Ecl0 seems not to be working for me..

[13:50]

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[13:51]

up_the_irons

toddf: it's pretty default

[13:52]

toddf

I'm sure there's a reason. even if it has to do with loonix filtering something on the vlans (which I doubt, but you never know..)

[13:52]

up_the_irons

toddf: nah, there should be no filtering at all on the vlans

[13:53]

toddf

pf.conf icmp filtering on the routers?

[13:54]

up_the_irons

nope

[13:54]

toddf

its just .. odd. because any other system I've seen with net.inet6.ip6.forwarding=1 responds to ff02::2, but it clearly is forwarding packets... ;-)
random curious itch I'm scratching. no big deal, just .. odd. ;-)

[13:55]

up_the_irons

yeah

[13:56]

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[13:59]

toddf

odd, seems I have a local switch blocking something or something .. my laptop doesn't see traffic sent to ff02::2%fxp0 from a system on the same ethernet segment.

[14:02]

up_the_irons

hehe

[14:03]

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[14:47]

jlgaddis

up_the_irons: as much as i shit on hp, i quite like their stuff for layer 2

[14:47]

up_the_irons

jlgaddis: o'rly?
then maybe i'll check it out, cuz all i need is layer 2

[14:49]

jlgaddis

yeah, the layer 2 stuff is solid. just don't try to route anything. =)

[14:52]

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up_the_irons

jlgaddis: ok :)

jlgaddis

i'm not sure what list is on the e4210-48g, but i think that'd do what you need and should be ~$1800 or less list

up_the_irons

awesome
i also got a suggestion for extreme networks x350 and an juniper EX4200-48P
so i got some homework to do
bet the juniper will burn my fucking bank down

jlgaddis

easily 2x the hp

[14:55]

fink

bankburner!

[14:55]

jlgaddis

the ex4200 is nicer though
they're stackable, too, if that matters
virtual chassis shit

[14:55]

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[14:58]

up_the_irons

jlgaddis: stackable may be nice when i exceed 48 vm hosts
i'm at 22 now, so it's not unlikely that'll happen within the next year or two

[14:58]

jlgaddis

out of curiousity, how many physical...
ahh ok =)

[14:58]

up_the_irons

[14:59]

jlgaddis

gonna need another cage

[14:59]

up_the_irons

nah, i can go to at least 48 in the same space
i have an empty cab that can do 15 servers and then i might have a colo customer giving up a cab within the next year
they got sucked into "the cloud"

[14:59]

jlgaddis

oh, one of those

[15:00]

up_the_irons

srsly

[15:00]

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[15:10]

up_the_irons

jlgaddis: what is the cli like on the hp's? is it "cisco-like" or... ?

[15:13]

"VLAN support and tagging: support IEEE
802.1Q, with 4094 simultaneous VLAN IDs
"
yeah, so the HP can do what I want, cool
can't wait to replace this Dell PowerConnect 5324
to be fair, it did its job for two years and was < $300

[15:18]

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[15:20]

jlgaddis

up_the_irons: not exactly like ios, but not majorly different. biggest thing you'll notice is how vlan's are configured.

[15:20]

up_the_irons

jlgaddis: ok
i wonder if there is a rancid profile for HP

[15:21]

jlgaddis

instead of 'conf t ; int <port> ; switchport vlan access <x>' its 'vlan <x> ; untagged <port>'
or 'vlan <x> ; tagged <port>' instead of "switchport trunk ..." basically
yes, there is. i use rancid with all my procurves.
s/cisco/hp/ in the router.db file

[15:21]

up_the_irons

jlgaddis: oh sweet, cool

[15:23]

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[15:24]

up_the_irons

jlgaddis: (re rancid profile)
jlgaddis: that vlan config is like force10
i don't have any force10, but a buddy of mine let me work on one once

[15:24]

jlgaddis

yeah the old foundry's were the same way

[15:24]

up_the_irons

i c

[15:25]

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[15:26]

jlgaddis

if you do end up getting an hp, ping me if you need anything. i, unfortunately, have way too much experience with them.

[15:28]

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[15:32]

up_the_irons

jlgaddis: sure will do

[15:39]

jlgaddis: why are some blue-ish and some grey? i take it the grey ones are the older model?
grey/white that is

[15:46]

jdoe

procurve?

[15:49]

jlgaddis

the e4210's were 3com's originally
oh, which means the cli is different and they probably don't have a lifetime warranty
glad i just thought of that. not sure if that makes a difference to you or not.

[15:49]

up_the_irons

jlgaddis: it actually does say lifetime warranty
why can't i find an f'in picture of one of these that is bigger than a thumbnail?!

[15:50]

pilgrimd

up_the_irons: which model(s)?

[15:54]

up_the_irons

pilgrimd: e4210-48g

[15:55]

pilgrimd

up_the_irons: Is this large enough: http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/PH_001737/PH_001737.JPG

[15:58]

up_the_irons

pilgrimd: omg, yes, thank you!

[15:59]

jlgaddis

that's not it
i have some of those in my office, i think they're 2510s

[15:59]

up_the_irons

yeah looks like the 2510

[16:00]

pilgrimd

pilgrimd can't see worth crap, it seems.

[16:00]

up_the_irons

those guys are pretty weak it seems, only 64 vlans

[16:00]

jlgaddis

thinking about it, i don't think any of the procurves (made by hp) can do 4094 vlan's. well, not 1u fixed-port layer 2 only ones.
just the stuff they got from 3com

[16:01]

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[16:02]

jlgaddis

those 4210s are probably the lowest end model that can

[16:02]

up_the_irons

roger that
i wonder how good the ex-3com stuff is

[16:03]

jlgaddis

haven't used any of it personally, but i've heard good things
if it were me and i could afford it, i would go with an ex4200 though
cisco > juniper > hp, imo =)

[16:04]

up_the_irons

yeah :)

[16:05]

pilgrimd

(vendor j)++

[16:06]

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[16:07]

up_the_irons

jesus the ex4200 is expensive (why am i surprised)
like $7K

[16:07]

jlgaddis

talk to a sales guy and tell them it's between the ex4200 and a c4500 but you're "just not quite sure yet" and ask if he can do anything
juniper salespeople right now have a lot of leeway in throwing discounts out
(especially if you're a new customer)

[16:08]

up_the_irons

oh i c

[16:09]

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[16:10]

up_the_irons

found one at buy.com for $5K

[16:10]

pilgrimd

$7k for a 48-port gig switch? sheesh. 3750X's are less than that.

[16:10]

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[16:11]

up_the_irons

oh the ex4200 is L3
don't need L3

[16:11]

jlgaddis

3750-x can't do 4094 vlans

[16:12]

up_the_irons

pilgrimd: don't think the 3750's can do 4K active vlans though

[16:12]

jlgaddis

you don't have to use l3 features, of course

[16:12]

jpalmer

(but you do have to pay for them!)

up_the_irons

yeah but you have to pay for it :)

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jlgaddis

2200 *might* work, one sec
ahhh, nope. only 1k vlans

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[16:14]

jpalmer

up_the_irons: you have 4k vlans in your environment?

[16:14]

jlgaddis

with 48 physical servers on a switch, it could easily be hit
since each customer has a vlan

[16:14]

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up_the_irons

jpalmer: i'll have more than 1k vlans in about a year, so i don't want to reach that limit too soon

jlgaddis

ex3200 can do it, but it's layer 3 also

up_the_irons

is it cheaper? :)

jpalmer

gotcha. that's what I was asking. are you *at* 4k, or is that expansion sized. ;)

jlgaddis

$2870 says google shopping

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up_the_irons

better
jpalmer: yeah not at 4k yet, not even close ;)