#arpnetworks 2011-01-14,Fri

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WhoWhatWhen
***LT has joined #arpnetworks [01:07]
...... (idle for 27mn)
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up_the_ironsRandalSchwartz: this week was busy; I thought u might be in for another week? I never made it down to the data center [01:35]
dxtrHey, up_the_irons! [01:46]
up_the_ironshey [01:46]
dxtrWhat's up? [01:47]
coobraup_the_irons: o/ [01:47]
up_the_ironsnothing
setting up some orders actually 		[01:47]
coobraanyone in London here [01:48]
bob^^i'm in the UK coobra if that helps [01:49]
coobrabob^^: :D
no
not realy
just wanted to know 		[01:50]
bob^^ahh :)
i've got kit in london :) 		[01:50]
dxtrcoobra: Sweden
Doe that count? :P
Does* 		[01:51]
coobrakit ? [01:52]
bob^^i suspect i'm nearer ;) [01:52]
coobrathe robot "KIT" [01:52]
bob^^equipment coobra - servers/routers etc :) [01:52]
coobra:D
ohhh
gimmi 		[01:52]
bob^^no :) [01:52]
coobradxtr: im from sweden im here on bett : http://www.bettshow.com/bett11/website/Home.aspx?refer=1 [01:53]
dxtrwtf is bett? [01:54]
coobraschoole thingy [01:54]
dxtrMkay
Where in sweden are you from? 		[01:55]
coobrastockholm/Värmdö you ? [01:55]
dxtrNorrköping [01:55]
coobracool [01:55]
dxtrImmensely :)
My girlfriend is going to londong on the 19th though :P
err
London 		[01:56]
coobracool [01:58]
bob^^london is great [01:58]
coobrai will be admin ower the wifi + local webdev servers @work
:D
junior mini admin
:D 		[01:58]
dxtrbob^^: In fact I think the entire UK looks like hell on eartyh
earth*
So I will probably never go there 		[01:59]
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dxtrEspecially London [01:59]
bob^^really? [02:00]
ideas1hey everyone [02:00]
bob^^man :( [02:00]
dxtrYeah [02:00]
bob^^you've been looking at the wrong parts [02:00]
dxtrMainly the personal integrity
I don't want cameras at me wherever I go ./ 		[02:00]
coobrawell [02:01]
dxtrcameras looking at me* [02:01]
ideas1does anyone know if I can run centos with arpsnetwork? [02:01]
dxtrideas1: Should be possibe
possible*
Gah. Morning typos 		[02:01]
coobrai think its debian/ubntu ? [02:01]
bob^^dxtr: don't believe everything you read :) [02:02]
dxtrideas1: Did you try googling? [02:02]
coobranot centos but i think it will be no probs [02:02]
bob^^london might be like that, but the rest of the country isn't [02:02]
ideas1yeah i googled it but nothing with this particular vps provider [02:02]
dxtrbob^^: The rest of the country is rain and forests to me [02:02]
ideas1i cant find reviews or anything [02:02]
dxtrideas1: try googling: centos km
err
centos kvm 		[02:04]
bob^^dxtr: go look at Edinburgh
:) 		[02:04]
ideas1derp derp
sorry 		[02:04]
bob^^but yes, we have lots of rain - not much forest, just lots of countryside and nice little towns and villages :D [02:04]
dxtrbob^^: Unfortunately I prefer civilization :)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Edinburgh_from_Scott_Monument.jpg <- It looks green... And gray 		[02:05]
ideas1wow that beautiful
thats* 		[02:06]
dxtrDoesn't look very modern [02:07]
bob^^it's one of the most beautiful cities in the world :)
it's not modern dude, that's the point! 		[02:07]
dxtrI don't see it, ut sure
but* 		[02:07]
bob^^it's all at least 200 years old i guess [02:07]
dxtrWhy don't they blow it up and start over? 200 years is quite old
I like it modern. Think central Tokyo or Seoul 		[02:07]
ideas1and lose all the architectural beauty
i live in california and all those buildings look like boxes 		[02:09]
bob^^exactly
i like modern too - but not all the time 		[02:09]
dxtrI don't see the "architectural beauty" in old crap anyway. I throw away things when they beome too old
become 		[02:09]
ideas1lol [02:10]
bob^^:( [02:10]
dxtrIt's gray and dull [02:10]
ideas1lol [02:10]
bob^^you should open your mind :) [02:10]
ideas1you should, i wish more things had history and told a story
everything looks like boxes here :( 		[02:11]
dxtrI did. That's when I realized I prefer functionality before age [02:11]
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bob^^i drink in a bar (well, pub) that's over 500 years old
american tourists come in 		[02:12]
ideas1can you get corona over there? [02:12]
bob^^it's fun to point out the bar is older than the US
:)
yup
i like corona :) 		[02:12]
ideas1mexican beers are good, any english beers you recommend? [02:12]
dxtrIt's a hell to maintain old buildings (Been there, done that), they look boring and usually you don't get the functionality you get with modern building
buildings 		[02:12]
bob^^yeah ideas1 - have you had proper beer or just lager (like corona) ?
(this sort of beer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cask_ale ) 		[02:13]
dxtrAnd if you dare to modernize an old building you'll get the rage from old people [02:13]
ideas1both we have a ton of local breweries aka micro breweries [02:14]
bob^^mmm, micro breweries :D
my favourite british beer is Purity UBU (http://www.puritybrewing.com/) - they are my local brewery 		[02:14]
ideas1i even watch soccer lol [02:14]
bob^^american beer - i love sierra nevada pale ale :)
actually, you guys have a lot of very nice good beer 		[02:15]
ideas1sierra nevada isnt bad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle_Brown_Ale 		[02:15]
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bob^^that's known here as 'newcky brown'
it *used* to be nice - but now it is brewed by another company, and is not very good :( 		[02:16]
ideas1pronounced "noo-key"? [02:17]
bob^^yup :) [02:17]
ideas1nice lol im calling it that from now on here [02:17]
bob^^:D [02:17]
ideas1ill act like i knew that all along lol [02:18]
bob^^hahaha - it might even say it on the back of the bottle
at one point they changed the label here so it said that :) 		[02:18]
ideas1ohhh you didnt know it was called newky brown, rookie!?! [02:18]
bob^^because no one calls it by the full name hehe
:D 		[02:18]
dxtrHmm
My sleeping girlfriend have rotated 90 degrees in the bed
That's quite impressive 		[02:18]
bob^^sleeping?! it's 10:25! ;) [02:19]
ideas1do you guys get these http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&tbs=isch:1&&sa=X&ei=fSQwTejROYS8sAPLmbSsBQ&ved=0CDMQvwUoAQ&q=corona+familiar&spell=1&biw=1680&bih=914 [02:19]
bob^^ooo, no, we don't [02:20]
dxtrbob^^: Yeah, she's been sleeping for three hours :p [02:20]
ideas1940ml of beer in one bottle [02:20]
dxtrOkay, more like four [02:20]
bob^^we just get these: http://www.crackedkettle.com/store/images/corona.jpg
:D 		[02:20]
ideas1lol those are tiny [02:20]
bob^^you do get some beers here in 1l bottles, but not too many
most of our beer comes as a pint - 568ml
or those sort of bottle, about 330ml :/ 		[02:20]
ideas1cheap beers come in huge sizes here, but good bears caps at about 940 [02:21]
bob^^bottles of good beer here are 500ml
which is really annoying 		[02:21]
ideas1lol too big? [02:22]
bob^^as you pour it into a pint (568ml) glass and it doesn't fill it... sigh [02:22]
ideas1haha
sooo how was the moral about the english soccer team? 		[02:22]
bob^^getting really expensive to drink here as well [02:22]
ideas1did you guys fire your technical director? [02:22]
dxtrbob^^: That's why you've got 50cl glass [02:22]
bob^^dxtr: PINT! [02:22]
dxtrHalf a litre? [02:23]
bob^^ideas1: i'm afraid i have no idea - i don't follow soccer/football at all :(
i'm a motorsport and rugby guy :) 		[02:23]
ideas1cars or bikes? [02:23]
bob^^pint = 568ml.. and we are very protective over our pint :)
cars ideas1 :D
single seaters mostly - f1, gp2 etc 		[02:23]
ideas1nice [02:23]
dxtrHalf a litre = 50cl.. And we are very protective over our standardized metric system [02:23]
bob^^a pint: http://www.darlocamra.org.uk/PintOnBar.jpg
stupid europeans
;) 		[02:23]
ideas1lol
are you guys freebsd users? 		[02:24]
dxtrYep [02:24]
bob^^here in the UK we are quite 'traditional' over weights and measures
yeah
it's still entirely normal here for everything to be inches, feet, yards and miles
and to buy fruit/vegetables by the ounce or pound
and beer by the pint 		[02:24]
dxtrbob^^: I hate when I watch TV shows from the UK and they weigh stuff in "stone". I'm like "Can't two stones weigh differently?" [02:25]
bob^^even though none of those are allowed in europe :D
haha :D
stone = 14 pounds 		[02:25]
dxtrAnd wtf is a pound? Isn't that a currency? [02:25]
bob^^pound = 454g
easy :D 		[02:25]
dxtrRidiculous [02:25]
ideas1yeah that stone thing caught me off guard when i was watching some cage fights... 13 stones i was like stones of what
i was expecting kilos 		[02:25]
bob^^i'm sure ideas1 will agree that the pound is a very good measure for weight :) [02:26]
ideas1no its stupid [02:26]
bob^^google calculator to the rescue :D [02:26]
ideas1kilos [02:26]
dxtrWhat's wrong with kilos? [02:26]
bob^^for science, sure [02:26]
ideas1i like kilos [02:26]
bob^^just doesn't fit for us here [02:26]
dxtrWhy not? [02:26]
bob^^tradition i guess [02:26]
ideas1its easy vs 16oz in 1 pound etc [02:26]
dxtrWtf is oz?
Isn't that a TV show? 		[02:26]
ideas1see waht i mean [02:26]
bob^^i would have nfi how heavy the average person is in kg, but i know in stone
oz = ounce
:D 		[02:26]
dxtrMy girlfriend got OZ tattoed on her chest
tattooed* 		[02:27]
ideas11 ounces = 28.3495231 grams [02:27]
bob^^i guess one thing about the UK is that we... like to be different :) [02:27]
ideas1lol [02:27]
dxtrbob^^: Also who cares how heavy the average person is? :P [02:27]
bob^^:D [02:27]
dxtrI'm 55kg o [02:27]
bob^^bob^^ shrugs
14 stone
:D 		[02:27]
dxtrIt could be more like 20 stone though
Depending on how much the stones weigh 		[02:28]
bob^^lol [02:28]
ideas1im 13.2142857 stone
i had to convert it in google lol 		[02:28]
dxtrAre we talking gravel or mountains? [02:28]
bob^^:D [02:28]
ideas1:) [02:28]
dxtrideas1: YOu're around my weight then, if we use the same stones
[02:29] <dxtr> o 		[02:29]
ideas1185lbs [02:29]
dxtrlbs? [02:29]
ideas183kg [02:29]
dxtrOh nevermind then
bob^^ confused me :P
I thought he weighed my 55kg in stones 		[02:30]
bob^^:( [02:30]
dxtrAnother thing that bothers me is measuring stuff in feet
I mean, feet are of different sizes 		[02:31]
ideas1yeah feet is a nightmare....12inchs in a foot
lol 		[02:31]
dxtrAlso inch bothers me [02:31]
ideas13 feet in a yeard
yard
etc etc etc
nightmare 		[02:31]
bob^^imperial measurements are easy
:D 		[02:31]
dxtrThey're retarded [02:31]
ideas1yes [02:31]
dxtrWhen people give me those measurement I automatically say "yes" [02:32]
ideas1why do freebsd guys get all mad at the linux guys? [02:32]
bob^^we do? :( [02:32]
dxtrBecause the Linux guys thinks they know stuff while the FreeBSD guys actually knows stuff :p [02:32]
bob^^that's probably true [02:32]
ideas1HAHAHAHA
im feelings are hurt 		[02:32]
bob^^you get a lot of people these days who think they're UNIX GODS because they've installed ubuntu [02:33]
ideas1i hate ubuntu [02:33]
dxtrI actually like Ubuntu [02:33]
bob^^ubuntu is pretty good i think [02:33]
dxtrDidn't like it a couple of versions ago. Now it's pretty good [02:33]
bob^^for desktops, ideal
for servers, use freebsd :) 		[02:33]
dxtrI'm gonna try PC-BSD someday
Never tried it
Parallels to the rescue! 		[02:34]
ideas1i use linux all day at work, but i do want to try freebsd for a webhosting [02:34]
dxtrfreebsd jails <3 [02:34]
ideas1is jails like suphp? [02:34]
dxtruhm, no
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/FreeBSD_jail
[02:35]
bob^^jails are brilliant [02:35]
ideas1:O what the FUCK!!!!
THAT IS GENIUS 		[02:35]
bob^^freebsd has had that for at least 10 years
it's why us freebsd guys are so smug :) 		[02:36]
dxtr10 years <3 [02:36]
ideas1so i could create a sandbox for each user? [02:36]
dxtrYeah [02:36]
bob^^basically, yup
or each service you run
or whatever you want, really :D 		[02:37]
dxtrI think I should go buy some cigarettes [02:38]
ideas1son of a bitch [02:38]
dxtrHuh? :( [02:38]
ideas1expression not calling anyone names
thats a pretty impressive feature 		[02:39]
dxtrYes it is
I have fapped numerous times to that feature
In fact my ex dumped me because I had an affair with jails 		[02:40]
ideas1haha
thats love an passion right there 		[02:40]
dxtrYeah
But I found a new girlfriend who likes me for who I am and says it's okay that I sometimes get passionate with jails 		[02:41]
ideas1lol i dont blame you [02:42]
dxtrAlso she said that it's okay, and in fact pushes me, to be passionate with my male friends. That is kind of awkward when I think about it [02:42]
ideas1lol
its only gay if you make eye contact 		[02:42]
dxtrThat's what she says
But she's bi so she'll never understand 		[02:43]
bob^^it's only gay if you push back [02:43]
ideas1whats the best freebsd version to start with, i want to do some test [02:43]
dxtrideas1: The latest? [02:43]
bob^^8 [02:43]
up_the_ironsup_the_irons thinks he should start making CentOS base templates [02:44]
bob^^well, it's 8.1-RELEASE atm [02:44]
ideas1i have my rhce test coming up maybe this will help lol [02:44]
bob^^grab that, then update it using freebsd-update [02:44]
up_the_ironsideas1: you can run cent, but you have to do the install yourself: http://support.arpnetworks.com/kb/vps/re-install-or-change-os [02:45]
ideas1sounds good, i do want to try bsd but ill be honest ill be a bit scared lol [02:45]
dxtrports <3 [02:46]
ideas1i ventured into solaris one time and came back running
so ssh and iptables that all the same stuff?
init scripts same basic idea? 		[02:46]
dxtrno iptables [02:47]
ideas1:S whats the freebsd firewall [02:48]
dxtripfw or pf [02:48]
ideas1googling [02:48]
dxtrIf you come from openbsd pf is sweet. Otherwise I've gotten the feeling ipfw is recommended. But that's just a feeling and not an expert opinion :P [02:48]
ideas1IPFW seems easy
but your right lots of pf vs ipfw discussion
kinda reminds me of ufw in ubuntu 		[02:49]
dxtrWell, I never touch iptables
It's crap that shouldn't have been created in the first place
You know a firewall is crap when you need special tools to manage it 		[02:50]
bob^^ipfw is good - but pf is what you should use now
if you get a box up ideas1 , do 'man hier' when you first log in
it explains the system hierarchy very well - where you can find scripts, where things are installed etc
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=hier&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+8.1-RELEASE&format=html 		[02:53]
ideas1whats the default shell [02:54]
bob^^sh [02:54]
ideas1bash? [02:55]
bob^^no
sh 		[02:55]
ideas1like the OG shell [02:55]
bob^^though during install you can adjust that - csh comes with it [02:55]
dxtrRookies... Aren't they cute? :D [02:55]
bob^^(it's csh but a bit more like tcsh really)
you can install bash if you want to 		[02:55]
dxtrI prefer zsh [02:55]
ideas1well i have a bunch of backup shell scripts [02:55]
bob^^the advice is to leave sh (or csh) as the root shell though [02:55]
ideas1that id hate to lose lol [02:56]
bob^^as any installed shell won't be mountable if something goes wrong with the filesystem
i use csh but i can still run bash scripts :) 		[02:56]
ideas1cron and all that also works? [02:56]
bob^^yes :) [02:57]
dxtrcron isn't a part of bash though [02:57]
ideas1yeah i know [02:57]
dxtrbob^^: Isn't csh pretty... lightweight?
I remember I smash my keyboard everytime I'm forced to use it 		[02:57]
bob^^does everything i want with a bit of tweaking in .cshrc
i find bash frustrating 		[02:57]
dxtrHow do you enable tab completion and stuff in it? [02:58]
bob^^uh, it just does it [02:58]
dxtrIt does? [02:58]
bob^^yup [02:58]
dxtrSo what is it that I always smash my keyboard for?
:P 		[02:58]
bob^^not a clue [02:58]
ideas1http://www.amazon.com/Absolute-FreeBSD-Complete-Guide-2nd/dp/1593271514/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295003013&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Building-Server-FreeBSD-Bryan-Hong/dp/159327145X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1295003066&sr=8-3 		[02:58]
bob^^it does tab complete, command repetition, history etc
everything you need really 		[02:58]
dxtrI might try it out then
:D 		[02:59]
bob^^if it's in linux, it's probably also in freebsd - freebsd is a lot more closely related to a 'proper' unix [02:59]
dxtrWill have to port my .zshrc though [02:59]
bob^^the differences you find are likely to be that linux is a SysV style system (semaphores, runlevels etc) and BSD doesn't have that
but then
these days linux tends to hide that stuff anyways so *shrug*
oh, ideas1... another feature you might like
if you want to run software that *only* works on linux
then freebsd can emulate linux and run linux binaries
(sometimes faster than they actually run on a proper linux box, too)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeBSD#Linux_compatibility 		[03:00]
ideas1nice
i only really use linux for server
for example i have a few www.kerio.com servers 		[03:01]
bob^^however 99% of stuff you probably run on linux can be built on freebsd (or exists as a package) that won't need emulation :) [03:01]
ideas1kerio connect runing on RHEL 5 (with subscription servers) [03:01]
bob^^this is worth a read too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeBSD_Ports
ports are one of the biggest 'cool features' of freebsd 		[03:02]
dxtrbob^^: So what's the difference between cshrc and tcshrc?
Just curious :) 		[03:02]
bob^^one's for csh and the other for tcsh? :)
iirc tcsh also reads .cshrc when you log in
i tend to just use the standard csh that comes with freebsd, and my own .cshrc 		[03:03]
dxtrAw man
Ofcourse I mean csh an tcsh
Silly me :p 		[03:03]
ideas1the difference between free and open? is the paranoid level? [03:04]
bob^^freebsd's licence is very different to that of a linux distro [03:04]
dxtrideas1: Free = Do whatever you want with it, open = view the source
Kind of 		[03:04]
bob^^with a BSD licence you can take the code, adjust it, even sell it commercially as part of another product without returning anything to the project
with GPL, you can't commercially sell it without providing source, etc, and changes have to be commited back to the original project etc etc
this is why parts of FreeBSD can be found inside Windows and Mac
*Mac OSX
not sure how true it is these days, but back in Win2000 the IP stack was lifted straight from FreeBSD then modified slightly
(nmap used to detect Windows 2000 as FreeBSD) 		[03:04]
dxtrHaha :D [03:06]
coobra:D [03:06]
dxtrI think they created they have their own IP stack nowadays
Err
I think they have their own* 		[03:06]
bob^^i think it's nslookup and ftp in windows (even current windows) that are lifted from freebsd too [03:06]
dxtrI blame my bad writing on lack of sleep [03:07]
bob^^:) [03:07]
ideas1ports just gets teh source? then you compile and install? [03:09]
dxtrNo it gets teh source and compiles and installs [03:09]
bob^^cd /usr/ports/www/apache && make install
that will download the source, compile and install 		[03:09]
dxtrYOu can do a bunch of cool stuff with ports [03:09]
bob^^or if you're feeling lazy and don't need to tweak any build knobs, you can just do pkg_add -r <port name> [03:10]
ideas1seems very similar to gentoos portage [03:10]
dxtrYeah, that's because gentoos portage is kind of a rip-off [03:10]
bob^^gentoo stole the idea from freebsd, so yup :) [03:10]
ideas1ahh
i may have to get two vps
one to play with freebsd and one for centos 		[03:10]
bob^^:D
a convert! :D 		[03:11]
ideas1ill give it a shot
lol 		[03:11]
bob^^you'll like it
and we're here to help :) 		[03:12]
ideas1i would be scared to go live with it since i dont feel i know enough
ok let me sign up 		[03:12]
bob^^there's #freebsd over on QuakeNet if you need anything too [03:12]
ideas1well as long as they dont chew my head off lol [03:12]
bob^^freebsd community tends to be pretty friendly
nah, you'll be fine - i'm an op over there :) 		[03:13]
ideas1:)
why is there a limit of only 1vps per customer? 		[03:13]
bob^^is there? :( [03:14]
dxtrideas1: No it isn't
? 		[03:14]
ideas1For new orders only, limit 1 per customer
Special also applies for any Linux distro we offer 		[03:14]
bob^^ah :(
must be running low on slots :( 		[03:15]
ideas1well that throws a monkey wrench in my plan [03:15]
bob^^well [03:15]
ideas1linode isnt freebsd friendly lol [03:15]
bob^^you could head over to amazon ec2 and register for their free thing
freebsd 9 has just become available on amazon ec2, but it's not guaranteed for production use yet
and it won't be quite as easy to set up 		[03:16]
dxtrtry rootbsd [03:17]
bob^^you could always ask up_the_irons - he might make an exception? [03:17]
dxtrideas1: But ask up_the_irons. Perhaps it's just one *NEW* order per customer+<
?
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_fictional_raccoons 		[03:17]
up_the_ironsideas1: no, you can order 10, i don't care ;) [03:18]
ideas1Please credit the sale to <dxtr> and <bob^^>.
just placed the order 		[03:18]
up_the_ironsyep, my phone just buzzed
dxtr: bob^^ : thank you guys :) 		[03:18]
bob^^:) [03:19]
dxtrup_the_irons o [03:19]
ideas1so i can order a freebsd one and a centos one right? [03:19]
bob^^yup [03:19]
dxtrup_the_irons: From now on you'll be my sexual advisor [03:19]
bob^^! [03:19]
dxtrYou owe it to me [03:19]
up_the_ironsideas1: yup [03:20]
ideas1damn dxtr is demanding [03:20]
up_the_ironssrsly [03:20]
dxtrImagine that resume
"Code slave, sysadmin and sexual advisor" 		[03:21]
bob^^lol [03:21]
dxtrTHINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES! [03:21]
bob^^anyway, time for me to go grab some lunch, back later :) [03:22]
dxtrThen I'll go buy my delicious cigarettes [03:22]
ideas1lol thanks for all the rookie help guys [03:22]
dxtrideas1: Hey, I'll be back in 15 minutes or so :P [03:23]
ideas1soudns good [03:24]
good night guys 330am here [03:34]
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.......... (idle for 45mn)
merkydo other people see just one cpu, or is it just me? [04:19]
................ (idle for 1h15mn)
RandalSchwartzit's just one virtual cpu, yes [05:34]
merkyoh it sounded like it was more than one on website
Multiple CPUs (SMP) supported 		[05:45]
RandalSchwartzfor the VPS?
not in the existing plans 		[05:46]
merkyis that some kvm issue? [05:46]
RandalSchwartzno, just a sales issue :) [05:46]
merkylike it can't fair queue
oh hmm 		[05:46]
RandalSchwartzI imagine you could negotiate a different deal [05:46]
merkyso they're all liek that?
i don't really know how much it bothers me 		[05:47]
RandalSchwartzwhere do you see "multiple cpus (smp) supported" on http://arpnetworks.com/vps ?
oh. 		[05:47]
merkylike i don't think i'm liekly to need that much cpu or anything [05:47]
RandalSchwartzright... in the rihgt column [05:47]
merkyyaeh [05:47]
RandalSchwartzyeah, you could probably get it for more money
but all the plans on the left are single cpu 		[05:47]
merkyit says all vps's include!
*sigh*
at least it seems ok performance 		[05:48]
RandalSchwartzwell, they don't get an A for english, then. :)
keep in mind, your IO is all virtual 		[05:48]
merkyit seems about same speed as poweredge 1750 [05:49]
RandalSchwartzso while on a dedicated box, you'd want a second cpu to handle interrupt stuff [05:49]
merkywhich are old school p4 liek xeons [05:49]
RandalSchwartzyou don't need that here, since that happens "off" your box [05:49]
merkyinterrupt stuff? [05:49]
RandalSchwartzIO [05:49]
merkyoh i haven't even really checked disk performance [05:49]
RandalSchwartzdma, interrupt handling, etc [05:49]
merkyit seems ok [05:49]
RandalSchwartzsome here have said "how do they get the virtual disk so *fast*"
I haven't compared. seems fast 'nuff. :) 		[05:50]
merkyoh real? [05:50]
RandalSchwartzyeah [05:50]
merkyi've got a few vps's, and a few hardware things at work
and doign opensolaris/xen at work too
and different hardware can vary with disk speeds a lot
thing i've found is most noticable is when there's battery backed write cache
thing is with that though is as soon as you write too much it's still slow
and mostly you notice it extracting tar balls etc it just finishes quicker
but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to give really good disk performance. just noticably good.
i'm assuing it's just fast disks in raid 10 without too many users?
and with spare ram for disk caching
what's a way to check disk speed anyway?
without doing something long like bonnie
314572800 bytes transferred in 13.229 secs (23778312 bytes/sec)
that's dd if=/dev/zero of=testzero bs=1024k count=300
23 megs/sec
314572800 bytes transferred in 5.154 secs (61025787 bytes/sec)
that's a poweredge 1850 with raid 1 on old scsi disks
so it's not amazing?
but as long as it doesn't get to 1/100th that speed all is good :)
314572800 bytes transferred in 4.131 secs (76142619 bytes/sec)
and that's one with battery backed write cache 		[05:50]
RandalSchwartzsorry, getting ready for work here
wandered away :)
still need to be concentrating on that 		[06:03]
merkyheh [06:03]
RandalSchwartzbut I'll be around all day, off and on [06:03]
merkyit's like 3 am here :)
haha that's what i'm like 		[06:03]
RandalSchwartzI've had 4 VPS here (various sizes) for a year [06:04]
merkyoh wow [06:04]
RandalSchwartzstill very happy [06:04]
merkywell i'm glad to finally be able to run openbsd :)0
:) 		[06:04]
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merkyrandom, i ran it again and it was faster. [06:07]
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jpalmerjlgaddis: yes, www.ipv6.facebook.com is, but that isn't their main URL. www.facebook.com (and facebook.com) is. thats what June 8th (world IPv6 day) is about.
jlgaddis: facebook, google, yahoo, and a few other big players will add AAAA records to their MAIN URL's for a minimum of 24 hours, as a test. 		[06:42]
merkyhocool
i can't resolve that what 		[06:48]
RandalSchwartzaccording to something I saw recently on he.net, you can actually get a faster net experience (a bit) by using ipv6
presuming you're not tunneled to start with 		[06:52]
merkyyeah
well i can get better speeds with their tunnel
actually that reminds me i was going to test taht
betwen two end points i jumped frmo 1.6 to 4.6 mb/sec or something 		[06:52]
RandalSchwartzI like how I can have five tunnels
I have one that terminates in LA
and another in London 		[06:53]
merkymegabytes that is [06:53]
RandalSchwartzthe london one is handy for watching iplayer :) [06:53]
merkyi am using all 5 of mine up
i have three that terminate in LA
and one that terminates in london
and the other one ic an't remember where it is
won't that need ipv4?
i've got a xen vps in the uk
oh i have 4 in LA now
i want more :(
or more people to support ipv6
2051k average, versus 1701k average
it's faster...
gah it's still skipping 		[06:53]
RandalSchwartztime to wander off to work [06:58]
merkywork hard :/ [06:58]
RandalSchwartzalthough, you won't notice here...
since it'll just mean I'm quiet for a few minutes. :) 		[06:58]
merkyheh
that's my trick! 		[06:59]
RandalSchwartzTerminal.app -> ssh -> screen -> emacs -> irc.el [06:59]
merkytried tmux? [06:59]
RandalSchwartzthe magic is in the "screen"
tried yes. 		[06:59]
merkyit's like screen but better
didn't like it? 		[06:59]
RandalSchwartzit was missing a few common features for me
can't remember what
they might be there now 		[06:59]
merkyi hardly use any features [06:59]
RandalSchwartzyeah, in that case, you might be satisfied easier than I was [07:00]
bob^^is tmux in base on freebsd yet? [07:00]
merkyjust multiple windows and attach/detach [07:00]
bob^^i know they were tryin to add it
*trying 		[07:00]
RandalSchwartztmux is a port [07:00]
merkynot sure, i know it's in base in openbsd [07:00]
RandalSchwartzI doubt it'll ever be a base [07:00]
merkyshift to openbsd :/ [07:00]
RandalSchwartzdid openbsd for four years
very happy to have moved to freebsd 		[07:00]
merkyhaha [07:00]
RandalSchwartzfreebsd = zfs-on-root + pf + huge ports catalog
openbsd, not so much 		[07:01]
bob^^http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2009-September/011762.html
looks like it might appear eventually 		[07:01]
RandalSchwartzjust theo's paranoi [07:01]
merkyyaeh, [07:01]
RandalSchwartzparanoia [07:01]
merkyzfs is cool [07:01]
RandalSchwartzI have four boxes all with zfs for / [07:01]
merkyit's why i'm doing opensolaris/xen [07:01]
RandalSchwartzno ufs at all
I tried opensolaris
but with the legal uncertainty, it's a mess now 		[07:01]
merkyi hate opensolaris [07:01]
RandalSchwartzoracle is ruining everything sun stood for [07:01]
merkyyeah well we're already using it [07:02]
bob^^it's very sad :( [07:02]
merkyi know :( [07:02]
RandalSchwartzI had an amazon ec2 instance for six months on opensol
moved that here as soon as I discovered ARP 		[07:02]
merkyoh you're running opensolaris on arp? [07:02]
RandalSchwartzno - I ported back to freebsd
it was openbsd -> opensol -> freebsd 		[07:02]
merkyahh
i can't stand opensolaris
but...
it hasn't really given many issues 		[07:03]
RandalSchwartzthe management stuff is interesting
powerful, but arcane 		[07:03]
merkyand as a virtualisation platform i haven't foudnanything better [07:03]
RandalSchwartzI find freebsd's rc.d files to be much more to my liking [07:03]
merkyvmware esx... linux vserver... openvz...
none of them sounding that exciting
never tried kvm properly, i tried it on desktop and it wouldn't go
i think it crashed my computer
or just didn't work
then i tried virtualbox
for the same thing, and it went :/
virtualbox is terrible for cpu idle i think from memory 		[07:04]
RandalSchwartzRandalSchwartz wanders off [07:05]
merkybob did you ever use opensolaris? [07:08]
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bob^^nah
i've used proper solaris though
(solaris 9 and 10)
(actually, 8, 9 and 10!) 		[07:10]
merkyahh
i've used solaris 7 		[07:11]
bob^^i guess it's not too different [07:11]
merkyit's all dirty [07:11]
bob^^i quite liked solaris
<3 CDE :) 		[07:11]
merkyhaha [07:12]
bob^^used to run it on my sun ultra30 :D [07:12]
merkywhen i'm "working"
i use ion
otherwise i've been using windows heh 		[07:12]
bob^^yeah tbh i've gone back to using windows on my work machines :( [07:12]
merkyi have some really shitty sparc somewhere
it was really slow 		[07:12]
bob^^i'd love to get a decent mac [07:12]
merkyssh key generation was noticably like
delayed 		[07:12]
bob^^hehe yeah the u30 wasn't exactly fast :) [07:12]
merkyand it's frame buffer was omg-slow [07:13]
bob^^i remember putting openbsd on it
and trying to build X
it took over a week 		[07:13]
merkyi put openbsd on mine
i didn't compile on it though i think 		[07:13]
bob^^tbh, i can't remember if i let it finish [07:13]
merkyit didn't have much ram as well [07:13]
bob^^i think i got bored and re-installed slowlaris [07:13]
merkyheh
slowaris really is slow 		[07:13]
bob^^mine had 512mb iirc - and quite a big scsi disk
still.. i had 64bit before everyone else :D 		[07:14]
merky512mb is lots
aren't all sparcs 64 bit? 		[07:14]
bob^^for the u30, it was really nicely specc'd
had a creator3d in it too
yeah merky, i think so :) 		[07:14]
merkyi stuck openbsd on some 1u sparc too
i can't remember what kind 		[07:14]
bob^^sparc is nice
we had a box on trial from sun a couple of years ago
T2000 iirc
it was beatiful and had 64 sparc procs in it iirc
and 64gb of ram or something stupid 		[07:15]
merkyheh [07:15]
bob^^and 8 little SAS disks in the front [07:16]
merkyit makes a lot less sense now [07:16]
bob^^such nice hardware - all brushed aluminium [07:16]
merkybut a while back
pc rackmount hardware was real lame
well actually
pc server hardware in general was lame 		[07:16]
bob^^yeah [07:17]
merkyits' got better over the yaers thuogh
bu oh well
solaris is dead
as good as dead at least 		[07:17]
RandalSchwartzI used solaris 1 and 2 :)
back when it was called sunos 4 and sunos 5 		[07:18]
merkyhuh? [07:18]
RandalSchwartz1991-ish [07:19]
merkyi used sunos
yaeh
sun3/60 		[07:19]
RandalSchwartzsolaris 1 was the distro that had sunos 4 in it
and solaris 2 was the distro of sunos 5 		[07:19]
bob^^hehe [07:19]
merkyoh taht reminds me [07:19]
RandalSchwartzalthough a lot of people at the time just said "sunos" vs "solaris" [07:19]
merkyi have some sparc clone i was goign to get going some time
but i never got aroundto it
it's probably in my garage 		[07:19]
RandalSchwartzwe had mostly sun4's in the server room [07:20]
merkyi've had it for years [07:20]
RandalSchwartzand sun3's on desktops [07:20]
merkyyeah
optical mice
that need a special pad 		[07:20]
RandalSchwartza grand total of 16GB of disk for 40 engineers! [07:20]
merkyand are bulky like amiga mice
that's FOUR HUNDED MEGABYTES PER USER 		[07:20]
RandalSchwartzrebooting to install 10.6.6 [07:20]
merkyandyou canshare binaries etc
andsave space
macos?
i can't remembe rseeing a sun4
http://web.archive.org/web/20000817004025/www.sparcproductdirectory.com/19rack-10.html
they're all ugly 		[07:21]
RandalSchwartzgood, that semes to have worked
upgrades are always a bit of risk
anyone want a wuala invite? 		[07:32]
merkywhat's wuala? [07:34]
RandalSchwartzlike dropbox, 2GB initial, but you can get more just by sharing *your* hard drive space of an always-on machine
also strong encryption... they don't have your cleartext
so, unlike dropbox. :) 		[07:34]
merkyoh weird. [07:35]
RandalSchwartzI'm sharing 50GB of my home server with them, and now I have 50GB of cloud storage [07:35]
merkyi had that idea :/ [07:35]
RandalSchwartzI use it to transfer stuff between home and laptop [07:35]
merkywhat net speed does it need? [07:35]
RandalSchwartznot dialup :) [07:35]
merkyheh [07:35]
RandalSchwartzyou can set the clients to throttle [07:35]
bob^^interesting idea [07:35]
merkyi have bw limit on my home connection [07:35]
RandalSchwartzif you go to the site, you get 1GB, but I have invites that start you at 2
anyone want one? 		[07:36]
toddfrandalschwartz: since they have bins I presume it's not open source? [07:36]
RandalSchwartzyeah, not open source [07:36]
merkyoh 2gb isn't that much [07:36]
RandalSchwartzbut built on many o/s technologies
2gb isn't much... it's the trading of space that makes it intersting
you can also just outright rent space too
like dropbox 		[07:36]
merkycan you rsync etc to it? [07:36]
RandalSchwartzsorta. [07:37]
toddfare there other companies that are open source that do this? [07:37]
RandalSchwartzthey give you a netdrive equivalent [07:37]
merkyor is there some annoying api? [07:37]
RandalSchwartzit's done with FUSE
so it's a little weird
the problem is that it's encrypted locally before shipping
so you have to have some local driver intercept the calls 		[07:37]
toddfmonetizing unutilized bandwidth and unlimited electricity in my office and idle and empty disks seems like a good idea to me ;-) [07:37]
merkydon't think i have a need for it [07:37]
RandalSchwartztoddf - want an invite? [07:37]
toddfrandalschwartz: dunno, I run only openbsd, so ... ;-) [07:38]
merkyqos it [07:38]
RandalSchwartzoh - not sure they have a client for that
they have some sort of command-line client that runs under linux emulation mode for freebsd 		[07:38]
toddfthere is a 'compile from source' option, woah [07:39]
merkyopenbsd can actually run linux and freebsd binaries in theory [07:39]
toddfhttp://www.dropbox.com/downloading?os=lnx
its much better to run native, freebsd/linux emulation works for some things, but it comes down to which system calls are used, some newer ones are not emulated at all 		[07:39]
merkyahh ok [07:40]
RandalSchwartzpedants would say your terminology is a bit off [07:40]
merkyi haven't used it in ages
i haven't run openbsd as a desktop in ages 		[07:40]
RandalSchwartzlike calling "wine" an emulator :) [07:40]
toddfs/emulated/mapped/ [07:40]
RandalSchwartzfreebsd doesn't "emulate" linux [07:40]
merkyi used to use it as a desktop and use opera under emulation [07:40]
RandalSchwartzyeah - it can use a different mapping of syscalls [07:40]
toddfs/emulated/implemented/ [07:40]
RandalSchwartzso there's no indirection there
just a bit set in the process table 		[07:41]
merkyit used to be that it used old redhat binaries
for libc etc 		[07:41]
RandalSchwartzstill does, as I recall [07:41]
merkyi can't say i've kept up with it
oh btw
can freebsd 64 bit kernel run 32 bit apps? 		[07:41]
RandalSchwartzI suspect so [07:42]
merkylinux can
i have found in the past openbsd can't :/ 		[07:42]
RandalSchwartzyeah - my 64-bit machine here has a lib32.so
so I presume that's the old lib interface 		[07:42]
merkyhmm [07:43]
toddfthe source has a libnautilus extension, so in theory it should work [07:43]
merkymaybe i should try out freebsd sometime
cos mostly i just want openbgpd, relayd, pf etc
which all aren't on linux
but all seem to be on freebsd too
i wonder if they're on netbsd
netbsd seemed cleaner than freebsd last time i looked 		[07:43]
toddfand the reason you don't want to try OpenBSD is ? ;-)
the migration from OpenBSD to the other BSD's lags somewhat..
hmm, it talks about the open source dropbox plugin downloading the dropbox binary, hmm 		[07:44]
merkyi'm already using openbsd :)
i'm mostly worried about the whole network speed thign with openbsd. 		[07:46]
toddfsorry, probably missed some prior scrollback
network speed thing? 		[07:46]
merkynot enough development seems to be happening [07:46]
toddfwhat typeof network speed are you worried about? [07:47]
merkyoh [07:47]
toddfWTF?
"NOT ENOUGH DEVELOPMENT" ???? 		[07:47]
merkyopenbsd only just added automatic receive window scaling [07:47]
toddfyou are obviously not reading source-changes nor tech [07:47]
merkybut it only works if the other end supports tcp timestmaps [07:47]
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merkydevelopment happens [07:47]
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merkybut i mean network stuff is a bit lagged behind freebsd etc. [07:47]
toddfnone of that has anything to do with routing and firewalling [07:47]
merkyoh yaeh, but as far as hosting stuff on it [07:48]
toddfit only effects userland apps serving content (httpd, etc) [07:48]
merkyyeah i know
well
i live in new zealand, and using openbsd on raw hardware as routers 		[07:48]
toddfI've had no issues hosting content on openbsd and am willing to take a performance hit if it happens to have a more secure system. I know that's not everyone. [07:49]
merkyand found it fine..
well yaeh, -current has new window scaling code in it
but it requires the other end to have tcp timestamps enabled.
that's the main gotcha i i have with openbsd.
amd tjat
and that's mostly abotu usig relayd etc.
you can force set a socket buffer size 		[07:49]
toddfrandalschwartz: I'll let you know if I want an invite, I'll setup a test account with a generic email etc and if I can do it fully open source, then I'll accept the invite, otherwise not worth my time [07:50]
merkyanyway, 4.9 should be a bit better for network performance of daemons etc. [07:51]
toddfmerky: openbsd is not against people sending diffs.. ;-) [07:51]
merkytoddf: yeah well i still wasn't sure exactly what i was doing
i tried posting to the dev mailing lsit..
i tried hacking the source
but it's kind of complicated.
and i don't understand everything
have you ever got a diff accepted? 		[07:51]
toddfgrep todd /dev/MAKEDEV
so you can understand I have some bias ;-) 		[07:52]
merkyahhh..
well i dunno
is it okay to look at freebsd code or something for inspiration?
it's bad to look at linux code cos of licensing?
and if code ends up too similar can be complicated? 		[07:53]
toddfno point in reinventing the wheel, credit from where it came from, bsd or similarly licensed is fine, linux if you read for docs but don't borrow code tends to be ok [07:55]
merkyhmm
maybe i should check freebsd
basically i just want window scaling to work without tcp timestamps 		[07:55]
toddfsounds like you do need to check that other os's perform 'better' for your application. otherwise you're wasting your time wading in the code. ;-)
do you have an application or just want the feature? 		[07:56]
merkyinternational tcp/ip performance is quite noticable
umm international web browisng
through squid as a proxy..
i suppose i need to find a way to record what sites have tcp time stamps on
like tcp dump maye
but on linux /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_timestamps being 0 		[07:56]
toddfscientific method and all that, you have to be able to have numerics behind your claims that things are slower or you don't know if you've fixed them to be faster when you change the source [07:58]
merkymakes -current go at 60k/sec or something internationally
well it's real obivous
i mean
it's a known limitation
from what claudio said
he went and took out net.inet.tcp.recvspace 		[07:58]
RandalSchwartztrying out the Mac App store. Just downloaded Twitter with it... very slick [08:00]
merkyoh they actually did that?
i thought that'd be in macos 10.7 		[08:01]
RandalSchwartznew in 10.6.6
the rest of the interface mangling comes in 10.7, I'm told 		[08:07]
merkyis 10.6.6 much better?
gah i should go to bed 		[08:07]
toddfso the dropbox open source system is an interface to their proprietary daemon [08:11]
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toddfhttp://forums.dropbox.com/topic.php?id=3107
interesting read 		[08:16]
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jdoemerky: no, 10.6.6 has no major changes other than the app store (misc bugfixes/performance improvements though)
... updating is generally a good idea, but it's not OMG YOU HAVE TO RIGHT NOW. 		[08:55]
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toddfso for the fun and adventuresome I've re-packed a program file wuala distributes to x86 unixen .. it contained linux swt class files checking into linux .so objects, replace them with openbsd objects, and wallah, gui works! [10:30]
RandalSchwartzyeay! [10:33]
toddfhttp://todd.fries.net/private/Wuala.368 -> wuala/Program4/Wuala.368 on OpenBSD/i386 and presto
presuming you have jdk installed blah blah 		[10:33]
RandalSchwartzand then you too can have dropbox-like filesharing, but better [10:34]
toddftime to see if nfs works, after I see the TOS
I specifically will be looking to find the 'share my disk for profit' details 		[10:34]
vcshaha [10:35]
Leftytoddf: "voila", not "wallah" ;) [10:35]
toddfLefty: you get the idea in any event [10:36]
Leftytrue, true
that's the nice thing about shared objects
they make things portable!
(in theory) 		[10:36]
toddfbah, account creation failed because of some swt class not present
next round of 'how can I hack/fix this' ;-) 		[10:39]
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RandalSchwartzwuala tells me you're activated
oh weird. I got the email, but nothing in the wuala interface 		[10:43]
toddfyeah, signin is finding more swt classes wuala adds in their hidden (wuala/Program4/Wuala.368) class library, so I'm adding them as it `notifies me' in full dialog alert mode
-nogui permits login 		[10:44]
.... (idle for 16mn)
looks like nfs needs to be enabled in the gui, continuing gui crash and fix mode [11:03]
BarberRonny:P [11:03]
RandalSchwartzoh look, there you are in my friend request list
by the way, you get all the "pro" features (backup and sync etc) just by sharing even the smallest amount of disk 		[11:11]
toddfI'm still fighting the gui, but presuming I get that fixed, I'll be shairing more than a small amount of disk presuming I get $$ for the effort, where's the link to do that or is it in the gui also? [11:14]
RandalSchwartzyou don't get $$. you get cloudspace.
the cloudspace *would have cost you $$*
you really were distracted on that phone call. :) 		[11:22]
toddfyeah, indeed [11:23]
RandalSchwartzbut for example, I now have 64GB of cloudspace
so I can share big files with my friends, or slowly transfer a lot of data from my home drobo to my work laptop while I'm on the road
I could have *paid* for that with dropbox, but it's free with wuala
in fact, if I get it large enough, I can use it to automatically make cloud-safe my pictures during a trip
just point wuala at my Aperture library 		[11:23]
toddfhow does it work if your shared space goes away (say disk failure, etc) ?
say you have 64g shared to them in the cloud, but then you loose net/disk/etc .. do you get to plop in a new disk and share it again within e.g. 2 days and all is good or do you pay for 2 days of 64gb etc? 		[11:27]
RandalSchwartzit drifts by 3% a day
weighted average
and they keep your stuff on the cloud... you just can't get to it
it seemed like they really wanted to be forgiving of possible failure modes
but they do eventually have to notify you of impending deletion 		[11:28]
toddfI presume they have a policy in place to not have people abuse that, upload 128gb, drop the local 128gb share, a year later, new 128gb share and re-download the data .. etc [11:29]
RandalSchwartzyeah, it looked sensible
involving notifications and such 		[11:30]
toddfso in essense by serving them some less reliable disk I get them to have more reliable disk to store data into [11:32]
RandalSchwartzseems that way :) [11:32]
toddfwonder if there's a xfer limit or what their policy is on their end wrt data storage, I presume they expect most people to purchase rather than share, and those that share permit them to monetize the shared disk space, sure would be nice if we could share disk space and make money off it also
obviously at a lesser rate than they'd charge for it
will sure be nice when the api is available, having java classes auto downloaded with shared libraries doesn't give me warm fuzzies 		[11:34]
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toddfhttp://www.wuala.com/en/api
presto 		[11:58]
booh, its only supporting public access at this time. [12:10]
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mhoranSorry, but if that's anything like the Lacie drives I've had in the past, no thanks. :) [13:26]
ideas1lol
lacie just bought them this past year 		[13:32]
toddfso bottom line is, they have a teaser of an open api, closed source ``security'' algorithms in java that downloads shared libs to your disk and uses them instead of your shared libs .. hmm.... I think I'll wait till I can inspect an openly implemented client of wuava or anything similar [13:35]
ideas1hey do you guys know how long it usually takes to get your account info, I signed up last night but havent heard anything
*? 		[13:41]
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toddfactivations happen overnight, so if it didn't happen last night, chances are better tonight. depends on available hardware and such. if it is delayed a few days due to hardware acquisition, its worth it, anybody here will attest to that. [13:47]
ideas1sounds good todd thanks
have you guys tried tarsnap? it works great 		[13:47]
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ideas1new to bsd, is the closest thing to pf on linux iptables?
i couldnt find a port 		[21:39]
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HUBPubideas1: yes, pf==BSD and iptables==linux. In BSD pf isn't a port, it's part of the base system. See man pf.conf and http://www.openbsd.org/faq/pf/ [23:59]
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