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mick_home has joined #arpnetworks mick_home: are there network outages? ***: jpalmer has joined #arpnetworks mick_home: up_the_irons: ^^^ jdoe: I think most (or at least a significant chunk) of this channel is on that network.
I am, at least. mick_home: hmm
my ssh connection just died mattx86: that was just a netsplit, right? mike-burns: Pretty sure that was a netsplit. mick_home: and my webserver is down
it just died for me (a minute or two ago) ***: jpalmer has quit IRC (Client Quit)
jpalmer has joined #arpnetworks mick_home: it is back
oh well
wonder what that was ***: mick_home has left
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ChanServ sets mode: +o heavysixer mattx86: this looks pretty cool: http://www.redhat.com/virtualization/rhev/desktop/spice/
no 3d acceleration yet, but its on their list up_the_irons: everything that starts out as "Simple", never ends up being so ;) mattx86: :P jdoe: OMG WTF NO WAY WHAT ABOUT SMTP?!
:P mattx86: yeah, e-mail in general makes me want to pull my hair out lol ***: heavysixer has quit IRC (Quit: heavysixer) vcs: ftp is the root of all evil toddf: Vint Cerf calls for ISP/Content Provider/User end-to-end IPv6 connectivity testing. ;-) awyeah__: Sigh. Google Apps is really starting to piss me off with how slow it is. ***: awyeah__ is now known as awyeah
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ChanServ sets mode: +o heavysixer awyeah: And I'm actually considering moving to a hosted exchange solution. IPv6Freely: up_the_irons: what, you sasying SNMP isnt simple? :P vcs: exchange makes me suicidal
in every way possible -: IPv6Freely very happy to not be a sysadmin vcs: one time i killed a man over exchange, i did my time
now I am out and exchange free -: vcs goes to exchange anonymous awyeah: heh
Yeah, I'm not interested in running my own e-mail, no matter what the platform. PITA. IPv6Freely: indeed
too much work for not much gain tooth: I am. Agreed though, PITA. vcs: as long as you dont admin exchange
you are probobly good
if you have to admin it... i feel very sorry for you tooth: that's not een an option. Lefty: I host on google apps, and am pleased with it
email + calendar, and I get integration with my android phone for free tooth: postfix for me.
well, at the expense of privacy+advertising Lefty: I find I just can't keep up with the antispam arms race tooth: agreed, it is a brutal race. Lefty: privacy - probably, but I see no ads ww: tmda has worked wonders for me Lefty: what's tmda? ww: http://tmda.net/ Lefty: oh, I looked at that ww: i get very close to zero spam tooth: nice. might tie in with greylisting as well? ww: with 15 year old email address
yes. i also use greylisting, that helps cut out a certain amount
... but makes first time delivery slower... tooth: ...you want an omlette... -: ww omelette
tooth cracks ww IPv6Freely: i have ads in gmail... but i dont notice them. Very unobtrusive. Privacy... well i dont see it as a privacy issue. ww: i also have a gmail address... i just read it with an imap client... no adverts... i use it when i want to make sure that every three letter agency has a copy of my mail :P IPv6Freely: heh you people are too paranoid tooth: I resemble that remark! ww: :) vcs: spam spam spam spam ww: the real reason i run my own mail server is that i always have... if i were starting out today i might not... vcs: i think there should be a system put in place
to prosecute people who buy from spam
that would end spam tooth: well, it would ww: by which world government? tooth: except that soon as you buy from it it becomes an accepted business exchange ww: half the spam is about semi-legal generic drugs that you could probably be prosecuted for buying anyways in the states... IPv6Freely: only spam i get on google is for legit stuff... like advertising crap from stores ive bought from ww: google's spam recognition is good... i don't know how they do it... vcs: haha
yeah
then again, googles search results are stellar
compared to everyone elses
seems like all googles web/cloud based stuff is ages ahead of everyone else awyeah: Except for one problem.
Gmail and Google Apps are slow as molasses for me and it happens a lot.
It annoys the hell out of me.
And I think Exchange is the right way because it enables push e-mail and sync'd calendar and contacts on my phone.
Problem is, hosted exchange is more expensive than google apps. Google's $50/user/year, hosted exchange is minimum $10-15/user/month Lefty: awyeah: I get push email, sync'd calendar and contacts on my Android device with google apps awyeah: I get that on my iPhone with google apps, that's not the problem...
problem is, the web interface has been slow for me quite often recently, and it's very irritating.
And google's support is sub-par.
If I'm paying for service, I shouldn't have to rely on a forum... hawk: Forum? vcs: lol
supporting exchange is funny
it usually means calling microsoft tooth: it's a pain.
we used to do it for customer, but then we just outsourced it to a client of ours that does that primarily (we're a managed data centre)
just wasn't cost effective
customers* awyeah: Well, apparently Rackspace has wonderful support.
they do exchange hosting. hawk: Well, yeah, if support is important to you that's probably a reasonable way to go. (But you do get email and limited phone support with the paid-for gapps options, probably not nearly as responsive though)
My exchange experience is so far limited to versions up to 2007 and must say that the web access is craptastic in those. But I would assume someone has tried to fix it in the latest version. up_the_irons: I love running my own email (Postfix + OpenBSD's spamd); total control and it is fast. I'm a minority though tooth: what do you use for the imap/pop parts (if you run those) ***: fink has joined #arpnetworks up_the_irons: we have hosted google apps (email, calendar, etc...) at DigiSynd, and the email is slow as hell (I used an IMAP client). calendar is pretty bad ass though hawk: up_the_irons: Slow in what way?
Slow deliveries or something else? up_the_irons: hawk: open a folder with 80K messages in it (like my trash), and it takes literally two hours to open. so i *have* to use the web interface when searching through large folders ww: heh. try doing mutt -f imaps://up_the_irons@imap.gmail.com/Trash up_the_irons: ww: that scares me ;) zxvff_: why won't support@arpnetworks.com respond to me? :(
do they hate me? hawk: up_the_irons: I tend to agree with ww... essentially "are you sure it's not your client that is the problem?" up_the_irons: hawk: the thing is, I have 80K message folders in my personal email, which runs on OpenBSD + Postfix + dovecot, and I have *no* problems opening it ww: need a new way to read mail... http://sw.joanneum.at/mle/doc.html is a nice idea... vcs: it sounds like MLA
which makes me cringe
haha hawk: up_the_irons: which is not on your local network? or is it? (that's much more forgiving for clients doing stupid stuff) up_the_irons: hawk: not on the local network zxvff_: use mutt to read mail hawk: ok. I only have about 50k in my largest gmail folders but I don't experience the type of issue you describe... maybe something seriously degrade somewhere beyond that ***: schmir has joined #arpnetworks jdoe: forgiving?
up_the_irons DOES NOT FORGIVE.
up_the_irons: re: google, I went through *exactly the same problem*
up_the_irons: the workaround here is "just don't subscribe to every folder"
I just use the webmail because *ix email clients that aren't mutt suck, and mutt sucks for corporate use :P ww: webmail's annoying... i miss my tab key...
... i just tried mutt -f imaps://xyz@imap.gmail.com/'[Google Mail]/All Mail'
... not pretty -: jpalmer uses google apps for several domains, and a homegrown postfix+postgrey+dspam. I have to say, the google apps takes a lot of the headache away from running a mailserver. unless you send a HIGH volume of mail, or *need* that level of control.. it's much more convenient. jdoe: jpalmer: in a perfect world I'd rather have postini and a homegrown server.
but the google apps stuff offers apps (some of dubious quality, to be sure) that you can't really get in open source stuff. jpalmer: jdoe: I've run about every mail cluster setup you can name. postini is nice, but not really much better than postgrey+dspam.
openbsd's spamd is "ok" but not as efficient as several other greylist options. (unless it's been updated recently) jdoe: don't get me started on greylisting. Heh.
in terms of straight statistical filtering, dspam is awesome. Gmail has orders of magnitude more users to train on than you do though.
honestly, I'd rather outsource spam.
it's not an interesting problem, and it requires reasonable maintenance. jpalmer: sure. but when you factor in the numbe rof people who train "unwanted (but subscribed to)" mail as spam, it's not as accurate as my own dspam training. tooth: we should all just move to gpg right jpalmer: "I suscribed to this, but now i don't want it anymore. therefor, it's spam!" jdoe: tooth: but who will trust the trusters? :(
jpalmer: I don't think that's a real problem. I'd be very surprised if you didn't lose more mail to greylisting (lol smtp farms) than you would to mouthbreathers hamclicking the report spam button. jpalmer: jdoe: I ran spamgrey and sqlgrey in log-only mode for many many months before enabling it fully (mostly, to build the whitelists automatically) never did a legit mail get bounced permanently.
for clarification, I didn't run both at the same time. I used spamgrey first, but found sqlgrey and liked it better. jdoe: yeah, the trick is I know there are broken smtp farms out there, like how facebook used to be.
or Bell for that matter.
I'm unwilling to sink that kind of effort into it. I used to, but ... I dunno, I guess I just don't care anymore. I'd rather delete a couple spam emails than lose something. ***: schmir has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) zxvff_: join #Bind
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nuke- has joined #arpnetworks awyeah: It's too bad there isn't a good open source solution for e-mail/calendar/contacts that has push syncing with mobile phones. jpalmer: awyeah: does it have to be opensource? google apps has all of that. vcs: awyeah: haha
awyeah: the main reason my clients demand exchange
is simply the callendar
being able to share them, etc
the thing that sucks about exchange is it requires active directory and tons of other dependencies jpalmer: it really is hard to beat exchange for calendaring. I'm not going to lie. vcs: so if you only need it for email, you have alot of bloat running
which makes backing it up a huge pain in the ass
I use the Open source version of zimbra
to host alot of clients email
they seem to be fine with it
howevever, only the payed version has the exchange connector
so they can connect phones, etc to it jpalmer: zimbra isn't bad. but it doesn't hold a candle to the full power of exchange.
most places though, don't USE the full power of exchange, either. vcs: yeah
backing up zimbra is a cakewalk
compared to backing up exchange... uggghhhh
makes me cringe jpalmer: backing up exchange really isn't that bad. vcs: hell, exchange 2007 did not even have backup support till sp2
thats pathetic
you should not need 3rd party software to backup emails
typical microsoft jpalmer: vcs: exchange 2007 did have backup support pre-sp2. -: vcs avoids MS like the plague vcs: not VSS backup
haha jpalmer: I'm thinking some of that avoidance either causes, or is caused by misunderstanding. vcs: Windows Server Backup is awful
it does not support incremnetal backups from command line
haha
im so glad i only have to administrate one exchange/AD box jpalmer: come to think of it.. I read a while back that bacula now has an exchange connector. I should check that out. vcs: if free zimbra had one, that would be nice
but they have to make money somehow jpalmer: (I love bacula) vcs: i dont blame em
then again, I am not a fulltime IT guy (although im the IT director at our small company, as well as fulltime software engineer)
ive put in 50 hours this week at the office already
got way too much work :X jpalmer: I know that feeling. speaking of which.. bedtime. awyeah: I know google has all that, but lately google has been slow.
Remember when stuff was simpler? mattx86: awyeah: would scalix, open-xchange, axigen, or zimbra fit the bill? awyeah: You know they might, although I'd rather not admin it myself. vcs: yeah, bedtime indeed
i got a rought day tommorow awyeah: Mostly, I don't want to have to deal with spam filtering, which as we discussed before is a pain in the ass... jpalmer: awyeah: don't want to admin it yourself? google apps. awyeah: jpalmer - I'm using google apps currently. But I'm getting tired of "Working..." .... "Still working..." .... "Are you sure you want to leave this page? Operations are still in progress" jpalmer: awyeah: so, hook it up to your email client. awyeah: I might just do that, actually. They do have a sync utility for outlook that gets calendar and contacts in sync. jpalmer: and it works nicely.
anywho, bed.
night awyeah: nite
me too. ***: butterball has joined #arpnetworks butterball: Hello, I'm trying to find out what the specs are for a vps. ***: butterball has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed)
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__Ehtyar has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) RandalSchwartz: specs?
oh, left