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[16:58] <tuv> who up*
[16:59] <tuv> i'm debating whether i should get my new vps from linode or arpnetworks. the major attraction to linode (compared to arp) is backup
[16:59] <tuv> so, do you offer backup?
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[17:25] <up_the_irons> tuv: we don't, sorry
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[18:09] <toddf> tuv: I looked at linode, it doesn't hardly even compare to arp .. unless you want a cheap vps with a single ipv4 IP and a limit on the os you can run
[18:09] <vcs> lol @ 2 ip limmit
[18:10] <vcs> and having to run linux?
[18:10] <vcs> :|
[18:10] <mhoran> Yuck.
[18:10] <up_the_irons> lol
[18:10] <mhoran> I have to run Linux all day at work. Why would I want to run Linux on my VPS.
[18:10] <vcs> Im not saying linux sucks
[18:10] <mhoran> I am. :p
[18:10] <vcs> obviously arp runs with a linux backend (KVM)
[18:11] <vcs> i am saying it sucks HAVING to use it
[18:11] <vcs> when free/openbsd are better at most server related tasks
[18:11] <vcs> and more secure
[18:11] <mhoran> up_the_irons: Speaking of KVM, are your PPM up to date or have you been keeping KVM up to date and not your PPM?
[18:12] <vcs> when it comes to a VPS where there are no hardware compatibility constraints as well as no need for virtualization
[18:12] <vcs> i see very few incentives to run linux
[18:12] <mhoran> Er, PPA.
[18:13] <up_the_irons> mhoran: the KVM in my PPA is what I use currently.  I have not upgraded because 1) it works very well, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it 2) it would cause downtime to perform the dist-upgrade
[18:13] <up_the_irons> gotta bail, cd $home
[18:13] <vcs> I like that reasoning
[18:14] <mhoran> up_the_irons: Cool. I've finally got some time to possibly move us off our deprecated Xen setup, and am looking into KVM. Tried setting up an installation based off your PPA but wanted to make sure there wasn't anything more recent before I went too far.
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[19:17] <tuv> i'm a debian die hard, so the option of not running linux is not very relevant to me
[19:18] <fink> pshaw@debian
[19:18] <fink> ;)
[19:19] <tuv> fink: there is a kfreebsd in debian, if your beef is with linux
[19:19] <tuv> if it's with debian though, it's a lost cause
[19:20] <fink> tuv: i bet you're one of those vi* lovers, as well?
[19:20] <tuv> fink: nah.. never got vi. emacs
[19:21] <fink> tuv: ah cool, well then at least we have something in common
[19:23] <vcs> i have no beef with linux
[19:23] <vcs> i just hate being restricted to only linux :)
[19:24] <fink> love rms, hate linux?
[19:24] <vcs> haha
[19:25] <vcs> I just hate how linux makes me jump through so many hoops
[19:25] <vcs> to have a good default system vs 0days
[19:25] <vcs> seems like the is no interest in proactive security in most linux distros
[19:25] <vcs> or nothing that is effective anyway
[19:27] <vcs> linux is great dont get me wrong
[19:28] <vcs> but for systems where security counts, i dont have time to spend a few days locking down a system good
[19:29] <vcs> for the desktop, it cant be beat
[19:30] <tuv> vcs: out of curiosity, what is it that you need to lock down in linux?
[19:30] <vcs> say i run debian
[19:30] <vcs> I would need to patch the kernel with grsecurity to add more secure chroot + SSP and memory randomization
[19:31] <vcs> i would need to chroot alot of notoriously insecure daemons
[19:31] <vcs> i dont have time to do that
[19:32] <vcs> say i ran a more enterprisey linux, like RHEL
[19:32] <vcs> i would need to disable like 30 services and tweak selinux so it did not break stuff
[19:33] <tuv> what are some examples of 'notoriously insecure daemons' that you can't replace?
[19:33] <vcs> also chroot daemons
[19:33] <vcs> well, bind has a bad record
[19:33] <vcs> it can be replaced yes
[19:33] <vcs> but i prefer to run all network services in chroot
[19:33] <vcs> besides stuff that needs root and cant be chrooted realistically, like OpenSSH
[19:34] <vcs> also, chroot in linux is too easy to break out of by default
[19:34] <vcs> so i need to apply grsecurity to basically any kernel that comes with a distro
[19:35] <vcs> but its not just about track records, its about proactive measures against future exploits
[19:35] <vcs> that may already be present in code
[19:36] <vcs> I can jail stuff easily with FreeBSD, and OpenBSD comes with most network services chrooted by default
[19:36] <vcs> the downside is of course hardware support and virtualization
[19:36] <vcs> but since we are running them in VPS, that does not even matter
[19:37] <vcs> and for linux only binary programs, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, solaris etc support emulation
[19:38] <vcs> i love linux, i just wish more measures were taken by default in distros to be secure by default or with little effort
[19:38] <vcs> thats really my only complaint with linux ;)
[19:38] <vcs> distros like debian get so much right
[19:38] <fink> vcs: you use jails?
[19:39] <vcs> fink: when I am working with a freebsd box yes
[19:45] <vcs> tuv: both linode and arp are great providers, but i feel less boxed in at arp because one can get additional ipv4 addresss (linode limits 2 per vm) and a full /48 block of ipv6 which will be nice in the future
[19:45] <vcs> and being able to run whatever OS i want with arp is great
[20:38] <tinono> you know what I want now? DragoflyBSD with HAMMER :-p
[20:58] <vcs> hehe
[20:58] <vcs> Hammer sounds cool
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