#arpnetworks 2010-08-02,Mon

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Who	What	When
up_the_irons	wiki theme is nicer	[00:17]
	cedwards: do you mind if I copy some of the stuff you wrote on arpwiki.com and put it on the official wiki? (the new http://wiki.arpnetworks.com) specifically, I was eyeballing the Arch Linux stuff	[00:29]
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	quiet in here, almost TOO quiet...	[01:08]
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up_the_irons	57 people in here and it is 1:45 AM PST. pretty good... #growing	[01:39]
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up_the_irons	58	[02:11]
LT	though most of them are asleep... the joys of irc	[02:12]
bob^^	i'm awake :) but then again, it's 10:15am here :)	[02:13]
LT	there is that too... if you really want lots of people here in the early hours PST start offering VPS in europe	[02:14]
bob^^	that would be great something UK based ;)	[02:14]
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up_the_irons	oh man, to manage a presence that far away... it's hard to imagine at the moment still need to fill up LA ;) I'd probably start with east coast US first... I may get deal on space from CoreSite since I already buy a lot of space from them i should say, "a lot" i'm sure Activision (a cage neighbor) thinks it's small	[02:30]
bob^^	it'd be eeeassyyy send me some hardware and i'll do the rest for you :)	[02:35]
LT	yeah... bob^^ would do it all for you... for free	[02:36]
bob^^	well i can certainly provide the space, power and addressing... :) sadly not for free, though :(	[02:36]
LT	heh... at least you've got some power - that's trouble enough in london	[02:37]
bob^^	yeah, it is a bit of a nightmare these days i believe we've got a whole cab sitting idle in telehouse north atm because they want crazy money for power most of our stuff is in Manchester	[02:37]
up_the_irons	up_the_irons ships a server to bob^^	[02:38]
bob^^	:D	[02:39]
up_the_irons	i have the addresses, but interestingly... do i need to get RIPE addresses if I have a box in Europe? or can I use my ARIN blocks? I haven't had a reason to figure that one out yet..	[02:39]
bob^^	you'd need something from RIPE they are seriously difficult to work with	[02:39]
up_the_irons	ugh	[02:40]
bob^^	however as a 'new' player over here you'd probably get on fine it's when you're requesting more addresses that they go all strict and make you justify everything you already have ...with graphs showing DHCP allocations, etc etc etc it's ridiculous	[02:40]
up_the_irons	haha, interesting. it's the opposite with ARIN first block is the hardest, then they are easy	[02:40]
bob^^	yeah, i've heard that... you guys are lucky :)	[02:41]
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up_the_irons	i'm hoping to send another request in at the end of the year... see what i can justify	[02:41]
bob^^	we asked for an ipv6 allocation just for testing they said no	[02:42]
up_the_irons	and then the next time i'd qualify for another request, we'll be all out of Ipv4 anyway ;)	[02:42]
bob^^	clearly they're worried they're going to run out ;/	[02:42]
up_the_irons	hahhaha i'll give you a /48 for testing... ;)	[02:42]
bob^^	;D	[02:43]
up_the_irons	/48's are totally routable although perhaps your upstreams would give you shit.. "where did THIS come from?!"	[02:43]
bob^^	lol, probably our main transit supplier doesn't seem all that bothered about implementing ipv6	[02:44]
up_the_irons	that's just sad	[02:44]
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up_the_irons	they'll already be too late	[02:44]
bob^^	in my experience, their attitude is pretty standard over here but then when RIPE refuse you a testing allocation, it's not really a surprise	[02:44]
LT	silly thing is if you hadn't mentioned it was for testing they'd probably have give you a /32	[02:45]
up_the_irons	yeah	[02:45]
bob^^	indeed if you do ever decide you'd like some kit over here though just shout am happy to help sort things out/be remote hands	[02:45]
up_the_irons	bob^^: yeah sure thing, i'll definitely prefer working with someone i know than a random data center	[02:48]
bob^^	indeed :) as long as you avoid putting kit in london prices are pretty reasonable too the biggest sting is likely to be transit costs, i think i've said before how much some providers expect you to pay	[02:49]
up_the_irons	yeah well, it'll just be cost of doing business; bandwidth prices will have to be higher for EU VPS's then	[02:54]
bob^^	yup, indeed	[02:54]
up_the_irons	to ZFS zealots, this needs some love: http://wiki.arpnetworks.com/wiki/ZFSonFreeBSD	[02:54]
bob^^	heh, i'm not brave enough yet to try it ;)	[02:55]
up_the_irons	:) well, it's been a long day, time to get off this thing; perhaps when i wake up tomorrow i'll see a wiki article or two... </hint> up_the_irons wanders off	[02:56]
bob^^	:)	[03:01]
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dxtr	Blargh	[04:21]
	Good mornin	[04:27]
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cedwards	up_the_irons: take what you need from the wiki. that's what it is (was) there for.	[06:20]
nesta	was?	[06:27]
cedwards	nesta: I had created a community wiki, which I see has now been replaced with a proper one.	[06:27]
nesta	ah okay	[06:30]
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j3m	up_the_irons: can I get the FreeBSD 8.1 disc in my virtual drive really quick, I broke something trying to update to 8.1 and need the 8.1 cd to fix it I just put in a ticket, but was wondering if you could just switch it quick if it doesn't take long due to the fact that all my stuff is currently down and people are not happy with me	[09:39]
dxtr	:D Fail	[09:41]
nesta	ppl are always unhappy fuckem :P	[09:41]
j3m	lol for reference, do not use freebsd-update to go from 8.0 to 8.1 when booting from zfs	[09:41]
dxtr	true story	[09:43]
j3m	anyone else try that? ah well, just goes to show 'google everything first' is not a habit I should have broken	[09:43]
nesta	hehe especially with ZFS!!!!?!?!? ps. freebsd-update also sux :P	[09:46]
j3m	but ZFS is so nice and shiny! how could ever fail me?	[09:47]
nesta	young grasshopper you have much to learn	[09:47]
j3m	always	[09:48]
nesta	same :P I don't use ZFS myself have thought about giving it a go	[09:48]
j3m	I have been very happy with it other than the high memory requirements, but then I guess that pays off in the caching it does well, and then this problem now, lol	[09:49]
nesta	mh hmmm hehe it is still a bit too 'beta' for me	[09:52]
j3m	snapshots are nice though, especially when combinied with jails	[09:57]
nesta	I dunno what that really means >_< hehe I use ezjail and default filesystem	[09:58]
j3m	well, the snapshots zfs lets you take, which are very fast and very cheap to do, are great for backing up the state of jails and they are very quick to restore as well speaking of that, maybe I should just restore my snapshot in the time being until I can fix this problem	[09:59]
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`nh	morning	[10:14]
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Ahmed	hello You guys allow IRC and provide IPv6 allocation, yes?	[10:33]
nesta	yes they do :)	[10:33]
Ahmed	Cool any SLA guarantee?	[10:34]
BarberRonny	i wonder about that too bro	[10:35]
Ahmed	I do hear nice stuff about ArpNetworks, but SLA is important	[10:35]
BarberRonny	maybe up_the_irons can answer this question	[10:35]
dxtr	Ahmed: Why wouldn't a VPS provider allow IRC? Sounds lame :P	[10:37]
Ahmed	dxtr: you would be surprised ☺ No IRC No IPv9 IPv6 even, heh	[10:37]
dxtr	Never heard of	[10:37]
Ahmed	You haven't looked	[10:37]
nesta	...	[10:37]
Ahmed	FreeBSD VPS, this is something I've been missing too	[10:38]
nesta	yeah its really radical idea	[10:38]
Ahmed	❥ FreeBSD	[10:38]
dxtr	Either that or I live in a country where the ISPs try to not limit what the customer is doing with their product ;)	[10:38]
Ahmed	heh hit the voicemaol	[10:39]
dxtr	Btw, I read on Twitter that OpenBSD supports wide chars now! Just waiting until they implement it in the mainstream release That's just plain epic	[10:39]
nesta	is it?	[10:40]
dxtr	Yeah	[10:40]
nesta	does FreeBSD support that?	[10:40]
dxtr	Yeah	[10:40]
nesta	ah okay you use Open I take it?	[10:40]
dxtr	nsyndaemon -K -d -i 1 Opps Nope I dno't don't Because it doesn't (didn't) support wide chars ;) To be fair I use it on my router But I'm totally missing the wide char support	[10:41]
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IPv6Freely	g'day hey up_the_irons :)	[10:50]
bob^^	lol, nice nick :)	[10:54]
IPv6Freely	Thanks sir :) jlgaddis recommended you guys, I think I may just sign up :)	[10:54]
dxtr	o	[10:55]
bob^^	nothing but good things to say here had my VPS (freebsd 8) for a good few months now, no issues	[10:55]
IPv6Freely	That FreeBSD special is super tempting, though I may just try out one of the smaller plans for now. Decisions, decisions.	[10:56]
bob^^	treat yourself :)	[10:56]
`nh	special or nothing!	[10:56]
IPv6Freely	haha fair enough	[10:57]
`nh	;P im wondering how long it will take to setup, i tend to like instant gratification even though, i assume if i was to order it when i was going to (last week) it would be up by now	[10:57]
IPv6Freely	ha	[10:57]
bob^^	it depends how much free space there is looks like there is actually free space at the moment, so i'd have thought you'd be up pretty quick	[10:58]
`nh	interesting	[10:59]
bob^^	i had to wait for a slot, but mine was up within 48 hours	[11:01]
`nh	thats a long wait	[11:03]
nesta	IPv6Freely: just fyi I got the 15 dollar deal and it's fine for my needs. I even managed to fdisk it up with seperate partitions on a 10gb disk, / /tmp /var /usr /home took some work hehe	[11:03]
IPv6Freely	is it not a standard partition scheme by default?	[11:04]
dxtr	Nope	[11:04]
nesta	its all on / by default you can do what you like after you get it though	[11:04]
`nh	o0	[11:04]
j3m	anyone want to try and help me with a zfs on root/boot problem that is likely my own fault?	[11:04]
`nh	you made /boot zfs?	[11:05]
nesta	j3m: try to catch RandalSchwartz if you see him	[11:05]
j3m	I did that when I first installed 8.0 from scratch I believe nesta: thanks, I'll watch for him	[11:05]
IPv6Freely	nesta: huh... okay. So how would you do that? Do they have some sort of remote console you can use while reinstalling the OS?	[11:06]
j3m	yes, VNC over ssh tunnel	[11:06]
nesta	yes IPv6Freely ... it rocks vnc application	[11:06]
IPv6Freely	hmm rad.	[11:06]
nesta	and you can boot from cd via it it is v sexy	[11:06]
bob^^	it is seriously cool actually :)	[11:06]
j3m	I tried to upgrade from 8.0 to 8.1 using freebsd-update	[11:07]
nesta	hehe yes	[11:07]
bob^^	and useful when you break things :D	[11:07]
nesta	I _still_ have no gotten over it tbh lol not* it's liek woah I think its the vm stuff that arp uses it too.. its great	[11:07]
`nh	vnc to console?	[11:08]
nesta	yeah	[11:08]
`nh	i thought that was common withing vps providers within*	[11:08]
IPv6Freely	Just signed up :)	[11:09]
nesta	most vps providers implementations seems to be broke as hell from what I have seen and heard	[11:09]
`nh	ive only ever used another popular bsd vps provider that will remain nameless here mainly because their cs sucks butt	[11:09]
j3m	something went wrong with that update, I have since read that others have had problems: http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=15131	[11:10]
`nh	got to read UPDATING brah	[11:10]
j3m	I always have in the past, my brain didn't get out of bed this morning it seems	[11:11]
nesta	:-/	[11:11]
`nh	monday for ya :P	[11:12]
j3m	now I am in trouble and if someone familiar with zfs booting on freebsd could help I would be supremely in their dept dept* see, brain, can't think today debt*	[11:12]
`nh	damn, wish i could help you man, but i dont have the experience with zfs to be any kind of help	[11:13]
nesta	hey don't you know the rule Never update on Monday.	[11:13]
`nh	lol	[11:13]
j3m	good rule	[11:13]
`nh	or friday	[11:13]
nesta	I just made it up and tbh, it is a good one :) although...	[11:14]
bob^^	friday!	[11:14]
nesta	I updated earlier lol	[11:14]
bob^^	never do ANYTHING on a friday is the rule we use ;)	[11:14]
`nh	^	[11:14]
nesta	yeh bob^^ hehehe	[11:14]
`nh	so tru, so damn tru	[11:14]
nesta	j3m: wish I had some idea buddy, hopefully RandalSchwartz will arrive with magical help soon paging RandalSchwartz paging RandalSchwartz	[11:14]
bob^^	lol	[11:15]
j3m	lol	[11:15]
nesta	he is very friendly he won't mind being paged I'm sure >_<	[11:15]
j3m	does anyone know what happens if you run '	[11:15]
`nh	nothing? or is that a trick question	[11:16]
j3m	'gpart bootcode -b /mnt2/boot/pmbr -p /mnt2/boot/gptzfsboot -i 1 ad0' on a mbr by accident as well, because, there is a slight chance I may have done that sorry, erroneous enter instead of rolling back my zfs to the working state, I tried to go forward with the update and ran that command, but there is a chance I didn't even use gpt on this box which i realized after but, maybe that is not the case, I need to find out now though, because booting gives 'Invalid partition table' now...	[11:16]
`nh	hm	[11:19]
j3m	however, zfs still intact and can read with zfs import from fixit shell	[11:19]
`nh	tried the "fixit" in sysinstall?	[11:20]
j3m	all data appears to be intact and I have rolled back the zfs to the pre-update snapshot I took but ever since I ran the gpart command I am getting Invalid partition table even after the rollback I'm sorry to hijack the channel for this problem, I've never dug myself into hole quite like this though...	[11:20]
`nh	not sure if this would help, but check this out: http://romain.blogreen.org/Blog/2010/02/ZFS%3A_unsupported_ZFS_version_14_(should_be_13)	[11:22]
j3m	that shouldn't be a problem for me, I am pretty sure the pool is still version 13 from freebsd 8.0 or it wouldn't work from the fixit shell (I think) yeah, just checked, is version 13 thanks though I think my problem is now that I messed up my partitions with that command, it is likely that I was running an MBR based system and that command wrote GPT stuff to my disk and confused things...	[11:23]
`nh	hm, i wonder	[11:28]
j3m	if I am right, I need to find a way to recreate a working partition table without affecting the data on my ZFS partition and dumb me can't find a record of the disklabel values	[11:29]
`nh	theres got to be some fbsd pros here	[11:30]
j3m	at the very least typing this stuff in is theraputic and helping me problem solve, lol hope I am not bugging people here	[11:31]
`nh	not me dude	[11:32]
nesta	j3m: when people stop replying and its gets all uncomfortably silent.. thats usually when I stop :)	[11:33]
`nh	lol	[11:33]
j3m	lol	[11:33]
`nh	that usually means no one knows	[11:33]
j3m	thanks :)	[11:33]
bob^^	rofl	[11:34]
j3m	well, if anyone spots a freebsd expert and/or RandalSchwartz give me a shout	[11:35]
`nh	have you poked your head into #freebsd?	[11:35]
nesta	##freebsd ;)	[11:36]
j3m	see, that seems like great advice, and the kind you forget about when in the midst of the problem	[11:36]
nesta	also #freebsdhelp j3m: us noobs gotta keep track of this stuff ok!? hehe	[11:37]
j3m	thanks :)	[11:37]
`nh	the countdown to vps setup is on :)	[11:46]
bob^^	:D	[11:47]
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Ahmed	up_the_irons, around?	[14:00]
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j3m	up_the_irons: I think I need the full 8.1 disc, the boot only disc you installed for me does not load into the fixit shell. If it is going to take awhile just put be back on 8.0 for now until 8.1 is downloaded.	[14:07]
up_the_irons	j3m: 8.0 is back. i'm downloading 8.1 full dvd. eta 30 mins 24 now	[14:13]
j3m	okay, thanks	[14:13]
up_the_irons	np	[14:13]
Ahmed	up_the_irons, got a minute?	[14:13]
up_the_irons	Ahmed: for?	[14:13]
Ahmed	sales talk. trying to call the company # but no luck, always hitting voicemail.	[14:14]
dxtr	https://s-hphotos-ash1.fbcdn.net/hs321.ash1/28193_1469077971411_1367449706_1286262_463159_n.jpg <- Nice picture of me and my girlfriend I just found	[14:14]
nesta	lol nice	[14:15]
dxtr	:D	[14:15]
schmir	schmir thinks about leaving this channel :)	[14:15]
nesta	we can help with that :o	[14:15]
j3m	up_the_irons: is there a way to snapshot my entire virtual disk, even if just until I find a way to fix my problem? I have to fix my partitions, but my ZFS volume is intact I don't want to break it any worse while trying to fix it... If that makes any sense...	[14:17]
nesta	why not jsut not use ZFS ? >_< I have seen so many people in pain from it hehe	[14:19]
Ahmed	and here he disappeares again How am I going to get answeres ¬¬ heh	[14:19]
j3m	nesta: My ZFS isn't the broken part, I somehow messed up the boot/partitions part, outside the scope of ZFS itself	[14:20]
nesta	if you say so :)	[14:20]
Ahmed	shrug	[14:23]
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nesta	lol	[14:24]
up_the_irons	j3m: i made the snap, but still be careful; i can't easily rollback an LVS snapshot; it has to be copied and re-dd'ed (if that makes sense ;) and at 60G it'll take a while	[14:31]
j3m	thanks a million up_the_irons, I'll be careful still, but I feel a lot better knowing I won't make it a whole world of worse trying to fix it	[14:32]
dxtr	up_the_irons: Can you order me a pizza? I messed something up :)	[14:32]
up_the_irons	j3m: no problem	[14:33]
nesta	up_the_irons: I need a massage plz	[14:33]
up_the_irons	dxtr: i'd like a pizza myself	[14:33]
dxtr	up_the_irons: Awesome! Then get me one and you can watch me eat it	[14:33]
up_the_irons	someone needs to add Humor to the wiki and put in some irc snapshots. there was that dude a while ago that woke up to find 2 chicks in his bed, but the convo was too long....	[14:34]
nesta	I was thinking of doing one on how to run identd deamon as user and not root might do	[14:35]
up_the_irons	sweet	[14:35]
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up_the_irons	j3m: do a full shutdown then 'Boot' from Portal / SSH console, then you should see 8.1	[14:38]
j3m	okay, thanks, trying now	[14:38]
dxtr	I can add a wiki entry on how to destroy a hundred thousand worth of stuff with a forklift truck, up_the_irons It was hard - but I did it once	[14:38]
up_the_irons	j3m: do you see 8.1 now? dxtr: we'll put that under Humor	[14:40]
j3m	up_the_irons: yep, thanks again	[14:41]
up_the_irons	i need to head out, be back in about an hour j3m: great up_the_irons wanders off	[14:41]
j3m	ls lol switched windows wrong there...	[14:46]
`nh	better than typing your root password into irc ;x	[14:48]
nesta	hehe someone did that recently and it was the pass for their facebook, server everything	[14:48]
`nh	lmao	[14:49]
nesta	bad news :S lol	[14:49]
`nh	ive done that before, but a work, into our corporate irc server at least it was just our prod root password	[14:49]
nesta	hehe luckily even if I did accidentally put it on IRC no one would be able to use it really	[14:49]
`nh	the SA pro tip to me was to start your passwords with '/'	[14:50]
nesta	I don't use passwords haha not for users anyway	[14:50]
`nh	keys?	[14:51]
nesta	yeah love dem keyz	[14:51]
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mattx86	would it be a problem if I wanted a non-mainstream linux distro installed? I'm currently reading: http://support.arpnetworks.com/faqs/vps/what-is-supported I guess I would just ask support for help on that	[15:29]
nesta	mattx86: yes you can do that most likely. any iso you can get as far as I know.. your mileage may vary I am quite sure any linux is supported don't want to speak for an admin though ;) Garry will be back in a half or so I think	[15:31]
mattx86	cool, ok	[15:32]
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mattx86	actually, I gotta go for a few hours, but I'll stay logged in bbl	[15:33]
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up_the_irons	mattx86: i generally don't do Red Hat based (e.g. CentOS, RHEL, etc...) linux distros because they leave everything and the sun open by default and get hacked	[15:44]
IPv6Freely	sup up_the_irons i think we've spoken on twitter in the past	[15:46]
up_the_irons	IPv6Freely: i was gonna ask if you were a former customer or beta tester, cuz your nick sounds familiar so yeah, twitter :)	[15:47]
IPv6Freely	indeed. Though im now a customer, I just signed up a couple hours ago	[15:47]
up_the_irons	IPv6Freely: yeah i saw that, welcome :)	[15:49]
IPv6Freely	thanks! you do the initial setups dont you?	[15:49]
up_the_irons	yup	[15:52]
IPv6Freely	Any chance you could give me the default FreeBSD partition scheme, rather than having everthing in / ?	[15:54]
up_the_irons	nope ;) http://support.arpnetworks.com/faqs/vps/custom-partitions but you can do it yourself	[15:54]
IPv6Freely	okay. only asked because it hadnt been setup yet ;)	[15:56]
RandalSchwartz	up_the_irons just clones an install... he's not actually going through the steps. so it's more work to do a custom install, work that you can do anyway	[15:56]
IPv6Freely	oh right, duh IPv6Freely slaps self	[15:56]
RandalSchwartz	RandalSchwartz slaps self as well self slap: 5	[15:56]
nesta	nesta slaps the monkey	[15:57]
RandalSchwartz	monkey beShocked	[15:57]
up_the_irons	IPv6Freely: yeah, what RandalSchwartz said :)	[15:58]
IPv6Freely	:) no worries	[15:58]
RandalSchwartz	I've installed ZFS GPT Root on ARPnetworks so many times, I could probably do it in my sleep now :)	[15:59]
IPv6Freely	i dont have any idea what that is :)	[15:59]
RandalSchwartz	ZFS for Root?	[15:59]
IPv6Freely	yarr	[15:59]
RandalSchwartz	it's all the rage! It's what all the cool kids use!	[15:59]
up_the_irons	up_the_irons points RandalSchwartz to http://wiki.arpnetworks.com/wiki/ZFSonFreeBSD and notes how empty and lonely it is	[15:59]
IPv6Freely	oh oh oh can i be cool too then?	[16:00]
RandalSchwartz	in that case, you do want one fat partition and you can easily add subpartitions and put quotas on them it's far better than hard partitions	[16:00]
IPv6Freely	IPv6Freely lost	[16:00]
nesta	hehe	[16:00]
RandalSchwartz	follow this - insightcruisesconcierge@gmail.com oops not that. damn copybuffer	[16:00]
IPv6Freely	=]	[16:00]
RandalSchwartz	... http://wiki.freebsd.org/RootOnZFS/GPTZFSBoot/ better those instructions followed literally work great don't deviate except on this line: echo 'ifconfig_re0="DHCP"' >> /etc/rc.conf first, it's em0, not re0 second, you need to use the fix IP info given to you since your box does not get a DHCP I have "defaultrouter=NNN.NNN.NNN.NNN" and "ipv4_addrs_em0=NNN.NNN.NNN.LOW-HIGH/28" that does it for me adjust /28 as you need it's either 28 or 29 or 30 does that help?	[16:01]
IPv6Freely	indeed	[16:05]
RandalSchwartz	so... F12 during boot, boot the cd, choose fixit, and you should be at a prompt then follow those instructions then reboot, and you should be live on your new machine	[16:06]
IPv6Freely	might as well try it... if i break it i can just do it again	[16:06]
RandalSchwartz	it takes about 15-20 minutes if you type fast the bad news is that you can't copy-paste from that text you have to literally type it. :(	[16:06]
IPv6Freely	why cant ya?	[16:07]
RandalSchwartz	the page contains some utf-8 characters for the computer-printout stuff it pastes wrong and at especially bad places	[16:07]
IPv6Freely	hmm probably can just paste into notepad or whatever and make sure its all correct and then give er	[16:07]
RandalSchwartz	you could first test-paste, I presume yeah uh... notepad!?	[16:07]
nesta	hahah	[16:08]
IPv6Freely	TextEdit then. sheesh	[16:08]
RandalSchwartz	RandalSchwartz hands IPv6Freely some emacs lovin'	[16:08]
IPv6Freely	IPv6Freely throws up all over RandalSchwartz	[16:08]
fink_	emacs rox	[16:10]
***	schmir has left "Killed buffer"	[16:19]
`nh	any eta on new setups?	[16:25]
RandalSchwartz	"new setups"? in general, they get processed in 24-48 hours at least from what I've seen here recently disclaimer - I'm just a customer	[16:26]
`nh	not sure what else a "new setup" would imply :)	[16:27]
j3m	RandalSchwartz: Do you know how to get info about the start and length of an intact ZFS volume when the partition table is broke?	[16:27]
IPv6Freely	`nh: i actually thought you meant new beta servers	[16:28]
RandalSchwartz	no - I'd just be staring at the output of geom	[16:28]
`nh	not sure how you got beta servers from new setups	[16:28]
RandalSchwartz	and if that's broke, nope	[16:28]
j3m	RandalSchwartz: thanks, that is all I've been able to do	[16:29]
IPv6Freely	I thought by "setup" you meant "server". Who cares	[16:29]
RandalSchwartz	there might be a backup partition somewhere	[16:29]
j3m	Now I'm going to have to zfs send to another disk with a working partition table	[16:29]
`nh	if somehow i am not speaking correct english, or code words, i care :)	[16:30]
RandalSchwartz	gpt right?	[16:30]
IPv6Freely	`nh: relax.	[16:30]
RandalSchwartz	or something with gpart?	[16:30]
`nh	? i think youre the edgy one here.	[16:30]
j3m	yeah, somehow I lost the partition table it seems, I think it was a command I entered when trying to fix a failed freebsd-update to 8.1	[16:30]
RandalSchwartz	eww but it still mounts?	[16:31]
j3m	I should have just rolled back my snapshot to 8.0.... yes	[16:31]
IPv6Freely	`nh: No. You're the one that got all upset because we misunderstood your vague question.	[16:31]
RandalSchwartz	weird	[16:31]
j3m	the data is fine	[16:31]
IPv6Freely	I don't have time for this, I'm not a babysitter. bbl.	[16:31]
`nh	IPv6Freely: not remembering anyone asking you anything...	[16:31]
j3m	zfs mounts it under fixit just fine	[16:31]
IPv6Freely	I apologize, I must have missed where to specified one particular channel member with your initial query. you*	[16:32]
`nh	not sure why "just some guy" would answer a question directed at staff, but ok :)	[16:32]
RandalSchwartz	there's probably info in the cache file then	[16:33]
IPv6Freely	I didn't see a question directed at staff, it appeared to be a general question to the entire channel. I don't know why you're making such a big deal out of this. Settle down.	[16:33]
`nh	nerd rage ^	[16:33]
nesta	same^	[16:33]
IPv6Freely	agreed^	[16:33]
nesta	lol	[16:34]
`nh	must be sensitive, i dont see anywhere that I raged. but sure kids :)	[16:34]
IPv6Freely	Must be one of those "has to have the last word" people.	[16:34]
`nh	IPv6Freely: is that not you mr. bbl...	[16:34]
***	schmir` has joined #arpnetworks	[16:34]
IPv6Freely	I rest my case.	[16:34]
`nh	just dont be hypocritical	[16:35]
***	schmir` is now known as schmir	[16:35]
IPv6Freely	And he's STILL going!	[16:35]
nesta	RandalSchwartz: what was your reason for switchign to ZFS	[16:35]
`nh	quit raging bro no one was even talking to you to begin with :)	[16:35]
IPv6Freely	Why are you still going?	[16:35]
`nh	because im at work and have some free time, you?	[16:36]
IPv6Freely	I'm a member of this channel, and you asked the channel a question. I answered. Relax. I don't know why this is such a big deal. Calm down, have a beer.	[16:36]
`nh	quit talking :)	[16:36]
nesta	stop the creepy smiles :/	[16:37]
`nh	stop lurking?	[16:37]
nesta	it's what I do	[16:37]
RandalSchwartz	a horse walks into a bar. bartender asks, "why the long face?"	[16:37]
`nh	then lurk more and shush :)	[16:37]
nesta	I chat when I like hehe RandalSchwartz .. old	[16:37]
IPv6Freely	So whats new, nesta ?	[16:37]
nesta	:P playing with ACL stuff, IPv6Freely	[16:37]
IPv6Freely	Right on, on which platform?	[16:38]
nesta	FreeBSD	[16:38]
IPv6Freely	Ah.	[16:38]
nesta	FreeBSD rox my sox	[16:38]
IPv6Freely	Word.	[16:38]
`nh	must be ex ubuntu user	[16:40]
RandalSchwartz	RandalSchwartz doesn't run linux, anywhere	[16:42]
sbp_	NESTA	[16:42]
nesta	nesta doesn't run linux, anywhere either HI SBP	[16:42]
sbp_	did u switch back to freebsd?	[16:42]
nesta	:D yuh, I never left actually haha changed mny mind last minute	[16:42]
sbp_	hehe nice is your box up?	[16:42]
RandalSchwartz	that's a pretty personal question :)	[16:43]
nesta	yeah, no user accounts though. rm'ed all lol RandalSchwartz	[16:43]
sbp_	ah ok we are irish brothers, we have shells on each others servers	[16:43]
nesta	I let go of all my shells hehe	[16:43]
sbp_	ah you dont use them anymore?	[16:43]
nesta	no sir	[16:43]
RandalSchwartz	michael fitzpatrick, and patrick fitzmichael? :)	[16:44]
sbp_	yes, but there is one big difference between us nesta rides a pink bike seriously	[16:44]
RandalSchwartz	o/~ put your shell... on my serr---r-rrrver o/~	[16:44]
nesta	lolz it's true	[16:44]
`nh	now it all makes sense :)	[16:45]
nesta	pipe down player hater go hate elsewhere with your passive aggressive smily faces	[16:45]
`nh	play with my acl?	[16:45]
nesta	... :) etc yawn troll is obvious troll IGNORED	[16:45]
`nh	if waiting for vps setup is troll, then yes i am	[16:46]
awyeah	....	[16:46]
`nh	dunno man, im in the channel waiting for my vps and i get verbally attacked by thugs on pink bikes and "players"	[16:48]
sbp_	dont pay any mind to him, he just gets mad when i bring it up	[16:48]
awyeah	:(	[16:48]
`nh	must of brought it up earlier, hes been in a stinky mood all day im not sure whats more retarded, ignoring someone on irc, or just pretending you did...	[16:48]
nesta	sbp do you know when Estella is flying out?	[16:50]
sbp_	yes	[16:50]
nesta	I forgot	[16:50]
sbp_	tommarow	[16:50]
nesta	I think she gone already ah ok I hope she gets it	[16:50]
sbp_	yah i do also she will be the best support @ awknet imho	[16:50]
nesta	yuh	[16:51]
sbp_	she allready had a netbook shiped to the d/c	[16:51]
nesta	haha nice	[16:51]
sbp_	i think afraid she will break it on that whole hour long flight	[16:51]
nesta	redy for actuon!	[16:51]
sbp_	i mean her good one	[16:51]
nesta	action	[16:51]
RandalSchwartz	awknet?	[16:52]
sbp_	yah	[16:52]
RandalSchwartz	competitors to sednet? :)	[16:52]
nesta	lol	[16:52]
RandalSchwartz	how about grepnet?	[16:52]
sbp_	a good friend got a 2 week trial there as an employee what is sednet and grepnet?	[16:52]
nesta	come on sbp_	[16:52]
RandalSchwartz	well - what is awknet?	[16:52]
nesta	snap snap!	[16:52]
sbp_	oh i gotcha sed grep awk :D	[16:52]
nesta	lol YAY	[16:52]
sbp_	i thought maybe there was some awesome dd0s protected place i never heard of for a sec was excited :D	[16:53]
nesta	hehe	[16:53]
RandalSchwartz	grepnet sounds like grape nuts :) so is awk in awknet like awk? or some other meaning?	[16:53]
sbp_	i really dont know, its been around for a pretty good while tho	[16:54]
RandalSchwartz	... http://www.awknet.com/ ?	[16:54]
sbp_	yah they are known for there ddos protection mainly	[16:55]
RandalSchwartz	how is "IRC" a "high risk service"?	[16:56]
nesta	depends on your network :)	[16:57]
RandalSchwartz	I'm trying to figure out what these guys are actually doing it smells a bit	[16:57]
***	schmir has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)	[16:57]
RandalSchwartz	like doing something marginal	[16:57]
nesta	they are a service provider, RandalSchwartz	[16:57]
RandalSchwartz	yeah - spam hosters are "service providers" too	[16:57]
nesta	cool	[16:57]
awyeah	A lot of hosting providers see IRC as a high risk service because IRC servers get DOS'd a lot.	[16:58]
RandalSchwartz	I'm just trying to figure out if awknet is a good guy, bad guy, or claiming-to-be-neutral guy but allowing bad-guy customers	[16:58]
awyeah	er, DoS'd. Also, they can sometimes play host to botnets.	[16:58]
IPv6Freely	IPv6Freely runs DOS on his new VPS	[16:58]
nesta	RandalSchwartz: claiming neutral imho they have quite a history from gigenet on up to present	[16:58]
RandalSchwartz	so this company openly permits botnets?	[16:59]
nesta	and foonet	[16:59]
RandalSchwartz	and you guys work with them or for them?	[16:59]
nesta	uh. no wrong all over	[16:59]
RandalSchwartz	well - then, first, what's the reference to awknet ... <sbp_> she will be the best support @ awknet imho	[17:00]
nesta	we know someone who has a job interview coming up there	[17:00]
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RandalSchwartz	so you associate with people who provide services to bad guys?	[17:00]
nesta	my friend provides services to bad guys? new to me, RandalSchwartz but you seem to know a lot so, fill me in a bit more please lol	[17:01]
RandalSchwartz	... <nesta> RandalSchwartz: claiming neutral imho	[17:01]
nesta	yep	[17:01]
RandalSchwartz	if you were choosing my third option	[17:01]
nesta	thats the compant y nothing to do with her as a person	[17:01]
RandalSchwartz	that means they service bad guys if she is interviewing there, it does	[17:01]
nesta	she needs a job, is broke... AND that was my _opinion_ I am quite certain she would not agree that they are bad nope those are your words	[17:02]
RandalSchwartz	then why would someone need those specific services?	[17:02]
nesta	no one elses	[17:02]
RandalSchwartz	what legit reasons are there for that kind of provision?	[17:02]
nesta	you invented stuff and pinned it on them	[17:02]
up_the_irons	I just google'd awknet. They are in 530 W. 6th St. 'nuff said	[17:02]
nesta	and are asking people to explin it lol	[17:02]
up_the_irons	If you've ever seen that place, you'll know what I mean	[17:02]
RandalSchwartz	up_the_irons - known spam hosting? or just cut-rate creepy?	[17:02]
sbp_	i dont know much about them, besides they have heavy ddos protection	[17:03]
RandalSchwartz	yes - why would someone need ddos to protect IRC?	[17:03]
up_the_irons	RandalSchwartz: 530 W. 6th St., now "Telecom Center", but was the Douglas Oil Building, is the crappiest building in LA for an ISP. shit is held together by duct tape. people who align themselves with that kind of work are usually up to no good	[17:03]
RandalSchwartz	sounds like botnets to me	[17:03]
sbp_	because people on efnet ddos randon people for fun	[17:03]
nesta	dang up_the_irons	[17:04]
sbp_	some people even	[17:04]
nesta	sucks for my friend :(	[17:04]
RandalSchwartz	that still doesn't explain why awknet would deliberately promote robust "IRC" networks	[17:04]
nesta	hopefully she will hate it and get a better spot	[17:04]
RandalSchwartz	most IRC is just casual chat	[17:04]
nesta	soemwhere else	[17:04]
RandalSchwartz	hardly mission critical unless you're a botnet operator	[17:05]
up_the_irons	"Blocks all DDoS", hrm	[17:05]
sbp_	youve never suffered from a huge ddos attack have you randal awknet can take more then staminus	[17:05]
RandalSchwartz	I generally don't do things that trigger that. again - wondering who these customers might be	[17:05]
sbp_	different worlds.. thats all :D	[17:06]
nesta	yep	[17:06]
RandalSchwartz	that need strong DDoS protection for their (again jawdrop) IRC networks smells to high heaven of spam botnets what other realm needs it	[17:06]
nesta	heh	[17:06]
RandalSchwartz	give me ONE example, and I'll shut up	[17:06]
sbp_	go msg haddem on efnet from an ipv4 and you will find out :)	[17:06]
nesta	or ipv6	[17:06]
sbp_	why you may need ddos protection	[17:07]
nesta	some people like to pick fights on IRC, RandalSchwartz... as lame as it be it happens .. and these guys host lots of them	[17:07]
sbp_	hes from brazil, wont understand you, unless you know protuguese, and will down you like no other	[17:07]
nesta	they are not necessarily involved in spam, most are not smart enough they have botnets but they are IRC channel bots	[17:07]
RandalSchwartz	so other than turf kiddies, what's the legit business motivation?	[17:07]
nesta	and they like to have tons of them and fight for channels and dumb stuff like that now that's an example for you	[17:07]
sbp_	alot of game clans need it also, or big web sites	[17:08]
RandalSchwartz	No - that's not a business	[17:08]
nesta	they made one out of it	[17:08]
RandalSchwartz	they keep saying "IRC"	[17:08]
nesta	whether you believe it or not	[17:08]
sbp_	i mean google.com probablly takes hits all day long	[17:08]
RandalSchwartz	why does IRC need that kind of protection	[17:08]
nesta	becasuse people DDOS each other is that not obvious?	[17:08]
RandalSchwartz	you still haven't said how IRC is mission critical enough to buy special resources	[17:08]
sbp_	its not but if you dont want your shit nulled or down you need some sort of ddos protection	[17:08]
nesta	becasue people don't want their channel bots dropped	[17:09]
j3m	up_the_irons: I have a new plan, check the ticket when you get a chance.	[17:09]
nesta	or their servers dropped etc	[17:09]
RandalSchwartz	I keep hearing the same thing. it's about kiddies, or about things you don't want to talk about	[17:09]
nesta	lol	[17:09]
RandalSchwartz	to me, that's still spam botnets	[17:09]
sbp_	you are from the services realm arent oyu	[17:09]
nesta	you asked for an example and you got one	[17:09]
RandalSchwartz	that's the only IRC that makes money	[17:09]
sbp_	nickserv chnaserv etc	[17:09]
RandalSchwartz	is there some other IRC that makes money?	[17:09]
nesta	these people that pay awknet for hosting get their money from parents a lot of the time, RandalSchwartz they are not smart enough to have spam bots... not to say thata awknet does not also host that but if you are asking me or sbp_ we are telling you our experience	[17:09]
RandalSchwartz	you mean parents put up money so kids can play turf wars?	[17:10]
nesta	yes	[17:10]
RandalSchwartz	what silliness have we gotten to?	[17:10]
nesta	I am dead serious	[17:10]
sbp_	thats why nesta has that pink bike he has awknet server	[17:10]
nesta	I am talaking tons of servers, shells, bots, etc ... all legal	[17:10]
sbp_	cant get car	[17:10]
nesta	I do not have any business with them don't associate me please lol	[17:11]
sbp_	i know :D i make it up	[17:11]
RandalSchwartz	anyway, as a bona fide certified spam fighter white hat, the mere existence of places like these makes me a bit sick.	[17:11]
nesta	except for my MASSIVE SPAM NET	[17:11]
RandalSchwartz	but I've said my piece. and thanks up_the_irons for that additional intel.	[17:12]
nesta	sorry for us making you aware of reality :-/	[17:13]
RandalSchwartz	well - I'm just trying to sort out if you're friends-of-friends-of-spammers or not looking for the white or black het hat even het doesn't make sense :)	[17:13]
nesta	right	[17:15]
RandalSchwartz	RandalSchwartz wanders off	[17:17]
........ (idle for 36mn)
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....... (idle for 34mn)
rVn_-	is there any forum where explain how to setup ipv6 on our vps	[18:27]
nesta	it's in the FAQ I do believe	[18:28]
RandalSchwartz	and it depends on what you've been told the default route may differ, for example for example, I have ipv6_defaultrouter=fe80::5054:ff:fe27:9007%em0 but I'm told that was simplified after I did that ... http://support.arpnetworks.com/faqs/main/how-to-configure-ipv6-on-freebsd but I think that's beeen superceded the routing on the "upstream link" no longer consumes ::1 and ::2 up_the_irons?	[18:28]
sbp_	mine was partially setup on ordering i believe	[18:31]
RandalSchwartz	I think he sets it up now so that both ends use fe80::1 and fe80::2 which doesn't consume any part of your /48 (or /64)	[18:31]
sbp_	ipv6_enable="YES" ipv6_defaultrouter="2607:f2f8:a100::1" ipv6_ifconfig_em0="2607:f2f8:a100::2 prefixlen 64" ipv6_ifconfig_em0_alias0="2607:f2f8:a100::3 prefixlen 64" is in my rc.conf if that helps you	[18:32]
RandalSchwartz	Yeah - that looks oldschool he experimented with me recently to get it more finely tuned	[18:32]
rVn_-	I use debian so abit differant then fbsd the setup i think	[18:32]
up_the_irons	sbp_'s rc.conf is correct	[18:33]
RandalSchwartz	if you use link-local addresses (fe80::) you can keep from eating up part of your /48 just for the link Oh really? you went back to the XXX::1 and XXX::2 ?	[18:33]
up_the_irons	RandalSchwartz: i use link-local only when requested by customer; link-local requires a bit of knowledge most people aren't used to yet	[18:33]
RandalSchwartz	it's just mine that's weird? :) Yeah 1 and 2 are easier to describe	[18:33]
up_the_irons	RandalSchwartz: keep the defaults easy and reserve the more advanced setup for those who want it	[18:34]
RandalSchwartz	or are crazy enough to request it :)	[18:34]
sbp_	i personally just want to be able to ping6 out and irc from it	[18:34]
up_the_irons	some people want to play around with IPv6 routing, so they request it. mainly for VPN stuff	[18:34]
sbp_	otherwise could care less about v6 at this point	[18:35]
rVn_-	heh from my side, first time I play with ipv6 so abit lost	[18:35]
RandalSchwartz	ipv6 rocks I have it on my laptop all the time via miredo and I have a v6 tunnel at home from tunnelbroker.net (free service) so all my machines at home have a globally routed address	[18:35]
sbp_	i have a vpn setup so i can ping6 at home, otherwisse my router wont even pass protocol	[18:36]
nesta	I would be in the sbp boat hehe, I just use it for silly hostname	[18:36]
up_the_irons	i like ipv6 in how i can auto-allocate blocks to customers. i don't need to analyze the "remaining" subnets and decide where "this" should fit	[18:36]
RandalSchwartz	yeah. everyone gets a /48 heck, I have 3 /48's :) 5 counting insightcruises	[18:36]
rVn_-	up_the_irons, do you have any Debian how to for ipv6 setup?	[18:37]
RandalSchwartz	I can enumerate 3 * 1152921504606846976 machines :)	[18:37]
nesta	interesting site RandalSchwartz	[18:38]
RandalSchwartz	as in, I can nearly assign an IP address to each grain of sand that fills the earth. :)	[18:38]
up_the_irons	rVn_-: just put this in your /etc/network/interfaces: iface eth1 inet6 static address $IPV6_PREFIX::$IPV6_IP gateway $IPV6_PREFIX::1 netmask 64 $IPV6_PREFIX -- use your prefix $IPV6_IP -- any IP you want (I use 2) replace eth1 with your interface	[18:39]
RandalSchwartz	I use 0. :) host -t aaaa red.stonehenge.com	[18:40]
up_the_irons	RandalSchwartz is too cool to school 8for *for	[18:40]
RandalSchwartz	nothing special about 0. I like that. does /whois RandalSchwartz show my v6 connection here? or is it masked? ... -wolfe.freenode.net- RandalSchwartz is connecting from *@red.stonehenge.com 2607:f2f8:3080::	[18:40]
up_the_irons	RandalSchwartz: masked	[18:41]
***	heavysixer has joined #arpnetworks ChanServ sets mode: +o heavysixer	[18:41]
RandalSchwartz	well - that's what it shows me connecting from red on v6	[18:41]
up_the_irons	doesn't show that for me	[18:41]
sbp_	whats so special about that u can do what you want inbetween and after the :: unless im missing it	[18:42]
RandalSchwartz	just saying my host is .... ::0 not ... ::2 as up_the_irons said which means I don't need to say xxxx:xxxx:xxxx::2	[18:42]
sbp_	ah yah u can do that anywhere even tunnelbroker	[18:42]
RandalSchwartz	just xxxx:xxxx:xxx:: I have two tunnels from tunnelbroker one for home the other for my laptop so my laptop has a /48 :)	[18:42]
smokey	smokey waits on his vps :P	[18:44]
RandalSchwartz	I'm just waiting for the day they open a voting website that blocks duplicate IPs but also permits V6. :) "here... allow me to submit my 1152921504606846976 votes"	[18:44]
sbp_	i just wish my home router would pass protocol without a custom firmware sup smokey!!!!	[18:45]
smokey	sup	[18:48]
j3m	up_the_irons: I updated and reopened my ticket, I have a new plan, could you take a look when you get a chance, I still need to solve this problem asap..	[18:48]
infrared	The more I use SLES the more I love it. Too bad it's not free :( Otherwise I'd use it on my vps	[18:54]
RandalSchwartz	SLES? RandalSchwartz googles ahh - first hit makes sense	[19:01]
nesta	http://i.imgur.com/tffa8.jpg	[19:01]
up_the_irons	j3m: replied	[19:01]
j3m	up_the_irons: thanks for the quick response again, sounds good :)	[19:09]
up_the_irons	j3m: :)	[19:11]
nesta	anyone feel like a chuckle? http://i.imgur.com/umcFD.gif LOL	[19:11]
sbp_	i feel like one paste your youtube vid	[19:16]
nesta	:P no way! peep that gif, sbp_ ^	[19:16]
sbp_	hehe looks like a lab/pit mix or something	[19:20]
up_the_irons	anyone know the answer to this: Postfix docs say "When a restriction list (example: client) evaluates to REJECT or DEFER the other restriction lists (example: helo, sender, etc.) are skipped.", but what about if the evaluation was "OK" (like in a white list), or other restrictions skipped as well? i have a whitelist in "smtpd_client_restrictions", but i wonder if it is affected by the following rbl checks in "smtpd_recipient_restrictions"	[19:21]
RandalSchwartz	I think once you have a solid yes or no, further checks are skipped I have a few rules that have a lot of DUNNO but that may be for a different reason	[19:22]
nesta	hey sbp_ pm	[19:25]
up_the_irons	i c	[19:26]
RandalSchwartz	I could be wrong	[19:28]
up_the_irons	i'll research more	[19:28]
RandalSchwartz	I hope to get Weitse on a future FLOSS Weekly I spent a weekend with him at a cottage back in 02 well, him and 120 otherws :)	[19:33]
up_the_irons	i just did a test; it appears it does keep on checking further restriction lists. all restrictions must pass it	[19:34]
RandalSchwartz	othere ya go	[19:34]
up_the_irons	but a single reject and it is toast	[19:34]
RandalSchwartz	ok there ya go even. :)	[19:35]
	that strategy does sound familiar	[19:42]
mattx86	up_the_irons: btw, that's cool. the distro I'm currently eye-balling is "Alpine Linux", which is supposed to be secure, but in any case, I'm usually quick to lock a vps down and turn off unnecessary services. :)	[19:43]
RandalSchwartz	ugh linux :) if you want real secure, don't use linux most root kits exploit windows and linux, not BSD	[19:44]
nesta	yep	[19:45]
RandalSchwartz	even if bsd isn't actually more secure, the odds of penetration are far less	[19:46]
mattx86	well, I kind of want to do FreeBSD, but I'm more used to linux in recent years	[19:46]
RandalSchwartz	that can be fixed. :)	[19:46]
nesta	come on over :)	[19:46]
mattx86	plus I'm kind of in a time crunch or I feel like it	[19:46]
RandalSchwartz	freebsd is pretty friendly you'll enjoy /etc/rc.conf all your local vars in one place	[19:46]
mattx86	one thing that kinda bugs me is the layout of apache's config files on freebsd	[19:48]
RandalSchwartz	how so?	[19:48]
mattx86	btw, I asked in ##freebsd, but didn't really get an answer:	[19:48]
nesta	ie. is it in /usr/local ?	[19:48]
mattx86	do most freebsd users install from ports into /usr/local ?	[19:48]
RandalSchwartz	it has to be, it's a port	[19:48]
nesta	if so that's a common Linux users complaint but it's really just a small issue	[19:48]
RandalSchwartz	yes ports = /usr/local that's the way it is	[19:48]
nesta	plsu it makes sense when you think of it plus*	[19:49]
RandalSchwartz	as in /usr/local is owned by ports	[19:49]
nesta	keeps things tidy :)	[19:49]
mattx86	I know, but when you're used to "/etc/apache2/conf.d/..." or some such :)	[19:49]
RandalSchwartz	and ports always use /usr/local you can be used to many things that are wrong :)	[19:49]
nesta	jsut add a /usr/local and bob's ur uncle not our bob^^ here but..	[19:49]
RandalSchwartz	zactly	[19:50]
nesta	ya	[19:50]
RandalSchwartz	it's just PREFIX=/usr/local no freaking out :)	[19:50]
mattx86	when directory paths get pretty big, I kinda go >_<	[19:50]
RandalSchwartz	get over it ln -s /usr/local /ul :)	[19:50]
nesta	haha ^ there ya go lol plus RandalSchwartz can make your ipv6 for ya easy on FreeBSD.. he has the magic commands :P	[19:50]
mattx86	heh, I did think about making simple bash scripts similar to rhel/fedora's "service" command, just I wouldn't have to type /usr/local/etc/rc.d/apache22 restart or such ;)	[19:52]
RandalSchwartz	just make them alias "webup" "webdown" "webreload"	[19:53]
nesta	mh /etc/profile is nice in FreeBSD too :D	[19:54]
mattx86	IMHO though, nothing I've found for server use just yet, is as simple and down to earth as archlinux's /etc/rc.conf and ports-like system	[19:54]
nesta	arch linux just wants ot be FreeBSD I know, I have used it quite a bit it's kernel will always be Leeeenux :P	[19:54]
RandalSchwartz	it's an arch rival	[19:55]
mattx86	no makefiles, spec files, just simple, sensible variable names and it gets down to business	[19:55]
nesta	lol RandalSchwartz duh dum tsh!	[19:55]
mattx86	heh I do have a few problems with arch though	[19:55]
nesta	hi mattx86, me and RandalSchwartz like FreeBSD. nice to you meet you lol	[19:56]
RandalSchwartz	RandalSchwartz won't run linux anywhere, because /me likes to sleep at night	[19:56]
mattx86	it's not i586, so I can't install it on my soekris net5501 without some fiddling, and there's not a lot of server-ish packages available, and some are broken or don't provide all the features you'd like - without doing some more fiddling around whereas, FreeBSD is BSD, so its awesome and documented, and there are tons of server packages available	[19:57]
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nesta	come on over :)	[19:58]
mattx86	so I do want to get into FreeBSD.. unless I can find something else perhaps ;)	[19:58]
nesta	me and RandalSchwartz have vetted all possible suitors for you already, mattx86	[19:58]
mattx86	my freebsd excuses aren't very good, I know ;)	[19:59]
nesta	we have FreeBSD to be the most suitable found* I am still trying to determine if I want ZFS hehe	[19:59]
RandalSchwartz	ZFS rocks	[20:00]
mattx86	is it NetBSD that has pf or ipf rather?	[20:00]
RandalSchwartz	freebsd has pf, ipfw, and something else I prefer pf	[20:00]
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nesta	I use pf	[20:01]
mattx86	I think I used ipf on NetBSD, IIRC	[20:01]
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mattx86	but over the past few years, I've learned iptables on linux that was a feat, I thought hehe	[20:01]
RandalSchwartz	yes. the firewall without a conf file seemed strage to me at the time	[20:02]
mattx86	heh yeah some distros actually "wrap" iptables with an rc script at boot/shutdown, to provide a sort of configuration file for it	[20:02]
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mattx86	that another thing I hate, distros that try to wrap everything up with a neat bow heh	[20:03]
RandalSchwartz	bow and not stern?	[20:03]
mattx86	meh, lets just throw the anchor at it :) hrm..would you guys mind answering a few questions about apache on freebsd? I attempted to install www/apache22 from ports like: make WITH_MPM=itk install	[20:03]
nesta	make config (tick the box) is what I would do	[20:07]
mattx86	I think it gave me an error actually, saying its already installed, but upon doing 'make deinstall' and then redoing my make command (above) gave the same error	[20:07]
nesta	or try anyway, duno if thats in the option s	[20:07]
mattx86	ah, make config let me see	[20:07]
RandalSchwartz	I just say "portinstall apache22" :) what does "WITH_MPM=..." give you?	[20:08]
mattx86	er, well, its supposed to compile in the 'itk' MPM for apache, but I can't tell that it's doing it	[20:09]
RandalSchwartz	and what does that do for you? I don't know what "itk" is	[20:10]
mattx86	oh, well its used to run vhosts as a specific uid/gid, instead of www/www for instance, for every vhost on the server	[20:11]
RandalSchwartz	ahh. evil.	[20:11]
mattx86	:P so, one vhost might be owned by bob:bob, and another by jane:jane this way bob can't read jane's php configuration files and get her mysql password for instance :)	[20:11]
mike-burns	I knew "PHP" would be mentioned in the explanation. I just knew it.	[20:14]
mattx86	:)	[20:14]
RandalSchwartz	Yeah. PHP ... generally evil.	[20:14]
mattx86	I have been meaning to try RoR and/or python though I'm a bit burnt out on web development at the moment	[20:14]
RandalSchwartz	all equally evil :)	[20:15]
mattx86	changes every time you turn around, for one thing	[20:15]
mike-burns	The Web is lame. Do server or mobile development.	[20:15]
RandalSchwartz	Smalltalk Seaside Intra-hit debugging nothing else has it	[20:15]
mike-burns	Intra-hit debugging? Is that the name of that feature where when the user encounters an error they get a Web UI with a debugger?	[20:15]
RandalSchwartz	hit a page... something breaks... up comes a debugger. poke around, fix the code, hit "proceed". browser refreshes with the hit that would have been had you done the right code initially so you are debugging in the middle of a web hit	[20:16]
mike-burns	I don't see the real world use of that.	[20:17]
RandalSchwartz	RandalSchwartz drops jaw seriously?	[20:17]
mike-burns	Not sure if I ever even look at Web pages that I develop anymore.	[20:17]
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RandalSchwartz	how many times do you noodle on your site, only to hit a problem?	[20:17]
mike-burns	Never?	[20:18]
RandalSchwartz	OK - you just lost cred there.	[20:18]
mike-burns	I don't actively use the Web, and I basically never use a site I've built.	[20:18]
RandalSchwartz	Yeah, this isn't for you then	[20:18]
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RandalSchwartz	too smart for you	[20:18]
mike-burns	Too "integration test? What's that?" for me.	[20:18]
RandalSchwartz	in spite of all tests, s**t happens	[20:19]
mike-burns	Yeah, and when it does you write a test.	[20:19]
RandalSchwartz	seaside helps you undo that crap	[20:19]
***	b0ne is now known as bone	[20:19]
mike-burns	Shit happens to the user, not to me.	[20:19]
RandalSchwartz	right - figure out the test when you can't remember how you got there as in, all you know is you have a divide by 0 RIGHT NOW and you want it to NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN	[20:19]
mike-burns	Was I in the middle of something else? I'd probably want to make a ticket/story/whatever for that so I can get back to it later.	[20:20]
RandalSchwartz	Seaside gives you a chance to fix that mike-burns - again, seriouslY?	[20:20]
mattx86	ah, www.seaside.st right? interesting.. I'd never heard of this	[20:21]
RandalSchwartz	you can always remember all the buttons you hit to get to a problem? you are like... Data from star trek not human	[20:21]
mike-burns	I never can, no, but if a 500 happens in a Rails or other CGI-based app it's usually because of the input sent in.	[20:21]
RandalSchwartz	I'm talking to the rest of the channel, made of humans	[20:21]
mike-burns	So I make a ticket with the backtrace and the environment and go back to it later.	[20:22]
RandalSchwartz	mike-burns in my experienece, it's rarely the single hit that made it blwo up it's some sort of state that my server side got into you're insane if you think that every web hit is independent	[20:22]
mike-burns	Ah, I don't see that much. Sometimes, maybe once a month or so, the DB gets into a weird state, but that's not the majority of what I see.	[20:23]
RandalSchwartz	At this point, I'm writing you off as naive.	[20:23]
mike-burns	I think mutation and state is imporant and the #1 cause of errors, but I don't see how giving the end user a debugger helps anyone.	[20:23]
RandalSchwartz	so for the rest of the channel, yes, Seaside rocks no, not end user just in dev	[20:23]
mike-burns	You actively use a Web site while developing it?	[20:24]
RandalSchwartz	RandalSchwartz rolls eyes at the non-human	[20:24]
mike-burns	Is it like, write some code, hit reload, write some code, hit reload, over and over?	[20:24]
mattx86	something to that effect, that's been my experience in PHP ;)	[20:25]
RandalSchwartz	no - but eventually, you dink around on the site to make sure everything is good or you are demoing it to your client and that's exactly when problems happen and you WANT to get to the source quickly	[20:25]
mike-burns	I honestly haven't had anything crop up since we've started doing integration-level test-driven development.	[20:25]
RandalSchwartz	yeah, that'll find 80% of it	[20:26]
mike-burns	The problems we face these days are more like scaling issues or other giant things.	[20:26]
RandalSchwartz	I'm talking about the other 20%	[20:26]
mike-burns	Or JavaScript.	[20:26]
RandalSchwartz	Seriously, dude. You've never dinked around on your site and said "oh, that's not right" ever ever ever	[20:27]
mike-burns	I'm sure I have, but I didn't need a debugger to know what to fix.	[20:27]
RandalSchwartz	RandalSchwartz sighs ok... hello mr. IQ of 250	[20:27]
mike-burns	I just wrote a test to repeat what I just did, then made the test pass. This isn't something brilliant, it's just programming.	[20:27]
RandalSchwartz	and sites that don't have a lot of serial state	[20:27]
mike-burns	Yeah it's a nice luxury. If we had lots of serial state I'd have to use something like Seaside. It has a great debugger for that.	[20:28]
RandalSchwartz	sir - I've been programming for 40 years. I do speak from some experience. either you aren't doing anything complicated, or you are glossing over something. there's no third option.	[20:28]
mike-burns	I don't do anything complicated.	[20:29]
RandalSchwartz	Yeah, therein lies the rub then	[20:29]
mike-burns	Or if I do, it's very complicated. We push back on anything in between.	[20:29]
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mike-burns	Well I uh. Was it something I said?	[20:29]
mattx86	er :o	[20:30]
nesta	no, mike-burns I do not think so er , in wrong place lol	[20:30]
mattx86	mattx86 thinks the channel needs a strong dose of "chill pills" heh from what I've seen in here tonight	[20:31]
mike-burns	Anyway, Seaside is neat and something like it is a great abstraction layer for serial state. I'm suspicious of any continuation-based Web server after working on the PLT Scheme one, though.	[20:31]
mattx86	just sounds like an improved version of php sessions	[20:32]
mike-burns	Heh, it can sound like that.	[20:33]
mattx86	hm.. so what all web languages do you use, mike-burns?	[20:34]
mike-burns	I do Rails all day.	[20:34]
mattx86	what's your rails development environment like? not textmate, I take it :)	[20:35]
mike-burns	Ha, vim. All vim, all day.	[20:35]
mattx86	er w/e its called for osx :) ah	[20:35]
mike-burns	I actually co-teach a Vim for Rails course.	[20:36]
mattx86	I've been a PHP man myself, ever since about 2001.	[20:36]
mike-burns	That's a long time in one language!	[20:36]
mattx86	I've been using Komodo IDE for it here lately yeah, probably explains why I'm burnt out ;P	[20:37]
mike-burns	I try to change languages every three years or so.	[20:37]
mattx86	that'd be a good idea, atleast to see whats out there vim though, seriously?	[20:38]
mike-burns	Sure, why not?	[20:39]
mattx86	I learned the basic usage for vi/vim, but its not as straight-forward as gnu nano or a gui editor imo	[20:39]
nesta	I love vi	[20:39]
mattx86	of course, I grew up with windows and notepad :)	[20:40]
mike-burns	"Intuitive" just refers to what you're used to.	[20:40]
mattx86	yeah, I suppose it does so, how might you maneuver around in vi/vim on a regular basis? I just go into insert mode, hit escape, type :wq and hit enter, myself ;)	[20:41]
mike-burns	Well I mean, basically half the keyboard is dedicated to maneuvering around vim.	[20:42]
nesta	I am a total noob with it so I use arrow keys >_< but I love it as an editor I can't use nano anymore	[20:43]
mike-burns	I tend not to be in insert mode.	[20:43]
mattx86	of course, other than insert mode being 'simple', how else do you enter text? if I'm not mistaken	[20:44]
mike-burns	Like, I don't enter a lot of text. It's mostly navigating around the file, jumping to definitions of methods, maybe generating some code, refactoring, etc.	[20:45]
mattx86	do you use rails' scaffolding alot?	[20:46]
mike-burns	Never.	[20:46]
mattx86	course, what I do know of rails is just from the 10-minute blog videos and the like heh but how else do you generate code?	[20:47]
mike-burns	So I'll write the code to migrate the database (add a table, delete a column, etc), then have vim generate the inverse migration (delete a table, add a column, etc). Or I'll split a view into some partials and vim fills in the right function calls in the old view.	[20:48]
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mattx86	I didn't know vim could do all of that	[20:50]
mike-burns	It's basically a giant programming language.	[20:50]
mattx86	ah	[20:51]
mike-burns	Anyway, I gotta run.	[20:52]
mattx86	alrighty later man	[20:52]
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twiggz	is it possible to have my freebsd vps i386 instead of amd64 ? oops, forgot i had a bnc here. lol id much rather i386. brb	[21:07]
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twiggz_	k twiggz_ lights up an acid kuba kuba	[21:10]
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twiggz	anyway id rather my vps be i386 instead of amd64, is that a huge problem or no? twiggz looks at the now 15 year old bottle of glenlivet he bought when it was 12 years old... twiggz patiently waits for answer.	[21:12]
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up_the_irons	twiggz: i can mount the i386 version of w/e ISO you like and you can then do a re-install on your own. i don't have any pre-made i386 images	[22:49]
nesta	hehe major catastrophe MAC just bit me in the butt I think	[22:49]
twiggz	to much work. was just wondering if it was a big problem to do it....for me...it is... i should have specified in my notes that i wanted i386 freebsd but so far, amd64 is not causing any problems.... so far, i am pleased. :D mac bites everyone in the ass at one time or another... nesta: ^	[22:51]
nesta	yeah damn it's got me good right now lol	[22:56]
twiggz	i have an old 800mhz ibook that i had to install OSX on with a fucking IPOD I HATE IPODS	[22:56]
nesta	no I mean ACL's Mandatory Access Controls etc	[22:56]
twiggz	Im talking about Macintosh.	[22:57]
nesta	yeah I know hehe I ain't :'(	[22:57]
twiggz	I actually borrowed a friends ipod..because i wont own one of those dinky pieces of shit to intall OSX on the 800mhz ibook with like 700 and change ram ... ran like shit compared to zenwalk or slackware or freebsd on a 500mhz compaq armada m300 lol.	[22:58]
nesta	twiggz: just fyi. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/mac.html I use a mac at home, I love OSX myself :P	[22:59]
twiggz	i hate it. its a fat whore thats pretty. :/	[23:00]
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twiggz	(is that possible?) I guess fat whores can be pretty..i dontknow. I dont know any fat whores.	[23:01]
........... (idle for 52mn)
IPv6Freely	sup doodz IPv6Freely on my macbook pro	[23:53]
nesta	hehe nesta same	[23:55]
IPv6Freely	had this conversation with somebody earlier today... im a network engineer, so for me, i just have zero interest in spending my time making my OS work when i could be spending my time making my routers work. so say what you want about osx, call me computer illiterate, i dont care - it just works, and thats my #1 concern. 10 years ago i would have enjoyed playing with linux or freebsd on my desktop, but at this point in my career, i just dont have time for it.	[23:57]
nesta	I like it because it's like a pretty version of FreeBSD, I spent years with FreeBSD and various linux on laptops and now I have a Mac and I think it's great. freeBSD on my vps ... all set :)	[23:59]
IPv6Freely	But at the same time, I also completely understand that there are PLENTY of people who DO like messing with their OS.	[23:59]
nesta	yeah I got tired of it eventually I prefer to have a server to twiddle with life is too consuming to be working on your damn laptop all the time	[23:59]

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