[00:00] http://chattanooga.craigslist.org/sys/1691930492.html [00:00] damn... I think i'm picking that one up tomorrow [00:00] yawn. [00:01] 1850s are okay. [00:01] i could probably talk him down 250 on that [00:02] dell's lights-out shit sucks ass though (and I'm not even sure if it's on those offhand) [00:02] maybe 2 [00:02] i built my quad core xeon (x3360) rig for like $600, brand new [00:02] mind you, it's not rackmount [00:02] i likerackmount [00:02] takes up less space nice and neat [00:03] yea they're cool [00:03] man i need to quit fucking around and get back to work so i can get some sleep [00:03] its beenn fun [00:03] i've got a few rackmount boxes, dual xeon 2.8, dual g5 xserve [00:03] ttyl [00:03] lates [00:40] *** AndrewBC has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) [00:41] *** AndrewBC has joined #arpnetworks [00:49] *** schmir has joined #arpnetworks [01:02] *** LT has joined #arpnetworks [04:57] *** nerdd has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [04:57] *** nerdd has joined #arpnetworks [05:16] *** Guest11764 has joined #arpnetworks [05:18] Sorry if I'm late to the game, but is anyone else having trouble getting to their VPS? [05:18] (This is mike-burns .) [05:18] let me see [05:18] i can get to both [05:19] Oh I can get in now. [05:19] Weird. [05:19] *** Guest11764 has quit IRC (Client Quit) [05:20] * amdprophet goes to sleep [05:20] 5:27 am... [05:20] Nice and early. [06:12] *** cmeiklejohn has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) [06:12] *** cmeiklejohn has joined #arpnetworks [06:12] *** cmeiklejohn has quit IRC (Changing host) [06:12] *** cmeiklejohn has joined #arpnetworks [06:18] still chuckling last night that he confused me for being some official rep, and just wouldn't shake that notion loose [06:19] and if he's *not* 17, he definitely stopped maturing about then. :) [06:31] *** heavysixer has joined #arpnetworks [06:31] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o heavysixer [06:33] *** vtoms has joined #arpnetworks [08:01] I sometimes can't connect to my vps via ssh. http/https work fine. anyone else noticed that? [08:01] nope [08:09] RandalSchwartz: looks more like you were getting confused, not him [08:14] schmir: I believe there's a rate limit on SSH, perhaps that's what you're hitting? [08:18] Wraithan - I was clearly not confused. [08:18] he was addressing me like I worked for ARP [08:18] even after I told him twice [08:18] RandalSchwartz: he was addressing the channel, and even explained that [08:18] mhoran: can't imagine. I can't connect for 5 minutes... [08:19] RandalSchwartz: you were the one being confused [08:20] tbh i thought that too [08:21] trouble with irc i guess, easy to misunderstand/misread :) [08:23] morning. [08:23] Hiyo [08:23] no... he was chatting with me, and said "on your website"? [08:23] clearly, he thought, and continued to think, that I was staff. [08:23] That was an initial misuderstanding [08:24] but he wasn't thinking that after you said you weren't staff [08:24] i think it was just an unlucky turn of phrase to use [08:24] i think he expected someone from ARP would read back up their log and see it [08:24] no - it continued after that. [08:24] ... i was rly looking forward to getting one of the vps' tonight but i'll - just get one when you guys get some more in [08:24] again.. ."you guys" [08:24] he was making general statements due to the fact that this channel is ARP's channel, so speaking in the plural you is natural [08:24] yeah, i think it's just general usage [08:24] yeah [08:24] i'd do the same tbh [08:24] and i wouldn't mean it in the way you've taken it [08:25] either way [08:25] I'm sorry... when I'm chatting *with* people, I presume I'm talking *to them*. [08:25] Call it a human trait. [08:25] RandalSchwartz: did he tag your name on the front of the message? [08:25] i don't think he was talking to you [08:25] so if I say "you" here, it's Wraithan and bob. [08:25] not Arp [08:25] that's a very human thing to expect [08:25] RandalSchwartz: if not, it wasn't directed only at you [08:25] you're right on that, but i think he was directing his comments at the channel (ARP) rather than you [08:25] hehe [08:26] symantics of language... fun :) [08:26] then he should have said "when arp gets more boxes" [08:26] not "when you get more boxes" [08:26] lol @ my typo [08:26] semantics, even :) [08:26] I mean seriously, have we really ruined communication skills that far? [08:26] maybe he was drunk or something [08:26] it is a plural you dude, it is part of our language, other languages have a more explitic plural you that isn't confused with singular you [08:27] And the world makes fun of Texas for "y'all" [08:27] even with plural you... to mean it means "the people currently participating in the conversaion" [08:27] even if I said "y'all" right now, it'd be the four people who have spoken here in the past few minutes [08:27] not the 25 idlers [08:27] why not the idlers too [08:27] to you, to him he obviously (and explained as such) meant the company [08:27] because they're not talking [08:27] what happens if you drop into a channel and go 'hey yall' [08:27] you wouldn't be aware of who had just been talking before you joined [08:27] so... you'd be addressing everyone [08:27] I'd expect it to mean the same thing as if I did that in real life [08:28] all depends on context :) [08:28] which initially would be "everyone in the room" [08:28] you'd be addressing the current active people implicitly [08:28] 20:34:18 RandalSchwartz │ who the hell are you talking to? [08:28] 20:34:27 mrbit │ the arp staff [08:28] but if people start talking to me, the focus narrows [08:28] 20:34:33 RandalSchwartz │ yeah, they aren't here [08:28] 20:34:35 RandalSchwartz │ not right now [08:28] 20:34:41 mrbit │ yeah well i'm sure they'll see it later randal [08:28] ^^ that [08:28] he assumed they'd scroll back [08:28] correct, and that means he should stop using "you" to mean "them" [08:28] which is probably not an unreasonable assumption, and he was polite enough about it too [08:28] anyway, moot point [08:28] since to me "you" is "me" [08:28] he's gone now [08:28] if you're talking [08:28] so hey ho [08:29] hes still here [08:29] * bob^^ goes back to doing something useful [08:29] idling [08:29] oh hehe :) [08:29] .... waiting [08:29] * bob^^ waves [08:29] ready to pounce [08:29] on ... YOU [08:29] * RandalSchwartz goes back to preparing for FLOSS Weekly [08:29] yeah i refered him to arp [08:29] eep! [08:29] because i've had great service [08:29] RandalSchwartz: your rules surrounding English aren't the only ones. [08:29] me too coil :D [08:30] but i wish people wouldn't speak for the company that aren't staff [08:30] I can see plainly why he used you, though you are correct that he could have been less ambiguous [08:30] and make someone lose business [08:34] well hopefully your friend will still use ARP [08:34] :) [08:47] RandalSchwartz: I floss daily. [08:47] Har har. [08:53] hee hee [08:54] yeah, never heard THAT one before [08:54] :D [09:04] *** LT has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [09:06] *** AndrewBC has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) [09:09] *** cedwards is now known as Zelut [09:10] *** Zelut is now known as cedwards [09:11] *** AndrewBC has joined #arpnetworks [09:35] *** sentabi has left "Leaving" [10:13] *** schmir has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) [10:51] Okay [10:51] I'm about to do my last course now! [10:51] The second course in Local Networks [10:51] \o [10:55] easy stuff :D [11:02] :D [11:03] Hmm... Five common operating systems for servers [11:03] GNU/Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD.. Windows Server? [11:03] solaris [11:03] hpux [11:04] I'll go with HPUX :) [11:04] solaris is more prevalet [11:04] prevalent [11:04] since it came out earlier [11:05] Don't hate [11:05] eh? [11:05] :) [11:05] just trying to be accurate [11:05] Hehe [11:05] if you don't need accuracy, just make things up [11:05] Well, doesn't say any specific [11:05] Just "Five common server operating systems" [11:06] I'm going to write up on their history, differences and s tuff [11:06] Piece of cake (Wich is why I saved this for last) [11:07] oh yes, there's the Cake operating system. :) [11:07] * RandalSchwartz ducks [11:08] That would be awesome [11:08] Huge splash screen saying "The cake is a lie" or something when one boots it [11:09] oh yeah, and PortalOS(tm) [11:09] pfft [11:09] IRIX [11:16] hmm [11:16] * jdoe gives Padre a shot. [11:17] http://is.gd/cqg4S had some neat things I'd never heard of before. [11:27] Hmm [11:27] About OpenBSd [11:27] I've never gotten this: Wikipedia says FreeBSD is a UNIX-like operating system, but OpenBSD a derivative [11:27] Isn't it same-same? :P [11:28] Because as far as I understand FreeBSD is a derivative too [11:39] *** heavysixer has quit IRC (Quit: BAMPF!) [11:39] *** heavysixer has joined #arpnetworks [11:39] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o heavysixer [11:39] *** heavysixer has quit IRC (Client Quit) [11:40] *** heavysixer has joined #arpnetworks [11:40] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o heavysixer [11:40] *** heavysixer has quit IRC (Client Quit) [12:00] *** schmir has joined #arpnetworks [12:17] I don't know about the derivative comment, but I understand they have to say 'UNIX-like' because of a trademark on the term 'UNIX' [12:17] unless you pay the piper you can't call yourself 'UNIX' (something OS X has done) [12:17] ahha [12:21] ..at least that is my understanding. I have been wrong before. [12:32] both obsd and fbsd are in the same camp [12:32] and both are derived from real unix, so I'd call them "derivative" [12:32] where I'd call linux "unix like" since it shares no original code [13:13] *** heavysixer has joined #arpnetworks [13:13] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o heavysixer [13:57] Hmm [13:59] *** AndrewBC has quit IRC (Quit: Bye!) [14:02] *** AndrewBC has joined #arpnetworks [14:18] RandalSchwartz: er... can't imagine fbsd/obsd still have original code since proper unix licensing restrictions are, er, more restrictive than the BSD license. [14:24] *** vinnyt has joined #arpnetworks [14:29] they have "real" BSD code [14:29] I consider BSD to be "real" unix, because that's how it was shipped [14:29] as in, it was inherently blessed by AT&T before AT&T turned over the trademark to the Open group [14:30] er [14:30] my understanding is that FreeBSD (and the rest) were descended from BSD [14:30] a very big deal was made of BSD not containing any AT&T code. [14:31] yes.. but it contains code that was shipped in something that was full-out called "unix" [14:31] er, sorry, BSDi [14:31] *** vinnyt has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) [14:31] whether it has any AT&T code doesn't matter at that point [14:31] so originally, unix = "just at&t" [14:31] for a while, unix = "at&t + bsdi" [14:32] now freebsd = "bsdi + other" [14:32] so yes, I consider freebsd to be real unix, since it contains parts that were shipped accurately under the unix label [14:32] even if they didn't come from at&t [14:32] nothing on the linux side can claim that [14:32] hence, linux = "unix-like" [14:33] RandalSchwartz: you were saying you use HE's tunnelbroker on openbsd right? [14:33] I had, yes. [14:34] no wait. [14:34] I used sixxs with openbsd [14:34] now I'm using HE with Airport Extreme [14:34] but I *could* have used HE with openbsd [14:34] it's just that I already had sixxs [14:34] sixxs predated HE [14:34] ahhh gotcha [14:35] i'm having issues with it, it's probably PF getting in the way but... [14:35] yeah... pf is gonna be crazy [14:35] outer rules for the ipv4 [14:35] which is the one that provides a bare tunnel and which requires a client? [14:35] inner rules for the ipv6 [14:35] sixxs needs a gif interface [14:36] he configures just fine with airport extreme [14:37] ah [14:54] *** cmeiklejohn has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) [15:06] pf and HE works fine on OpenBSD, I have several systems tunneling to HE from OpenBSD [15:07] you need to understand that on the physical interface 'inet proto ipv6' is what must be passed for gif(4) to work, and then separately filtering v6 on the gif(4) interface [15:12] ... wow the Mojolicious test suite is garbage [15:12] why on earth would testing apache cgi/fastcgi require osx... why on earth is it trying to listen to (and connect on) a privileged port... eesh. [15:14] all of that sounds very "Ruby" to me, although I'm not familiar with Mojolicious. [15:16] *** AndrewBC has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) [15:16] it appears to just be one of my favorite CPAN complaints. Everything works fine on Linux, someone is likely deciding all the world's GNU... [15:20] hm, how did one easily calculate the amount of addresses in an ipv6 subnet? 2^(128-subnet)+ [15:20] ? [15:20] My mind is blank at the moment :P [15:21] dxtr: yes [15:21] Where does the 2 come from? [15:21] do* [15:21] power of 2 [15:21] Yeah, what I thought [15:21] don't ask that if you're taking computer classes [15:22] or i will hit you with a noob stick [15:22] Haha :D [15:22] I'm doing my report in Local Networks B [15:23] *** AndrewBC has joined #arpnetworks [15:24] LOLZ [15:24] $ make search key=dspam [15:24] Port: dspam-3.8.0p0-sqlite3 [15:24] Path: mail/dspam,sqlite3 [15:24] Info: anti-spam filter [15:24] Maint: Todd T. Fries [15:24] ... [15:24] toddf is a popular guy [15:25] :D [15:26] toddf: so do you prefer dspam over, say, spamassassin? I've run dspam for several years on Linux, and liked it quite a bit, but now that I'm redoing my mail server in OpenBSD, I'm revisiting spamassassin / amavis-new just b/c there is so much "support" for it (easy to find docs / how-tos) [15:27] ever compared the load generated by those two? [15:29] up_the_irons: my experience with dspam is that it's (of course) much faster and less unpleasant with ram than perl, and more accurate given a large enough corpus and effort to keep it trained. [15:29] DaCa: dspam used a lot less resources [15:29] jdoe: yeah that's basically my experience too. training kinda sucks though [15:29] up_the_irons: indeed :) [15:30] up_the_irons: training isn't *that* bad if it's just you. [15:30] DaCa: what do you use? [15:30] setting up training for multiple users is a pain though. [15:30] ... and then you have to figure out if you want a global data set, per-user training, etc. [15:30] which is why I always bitch out and use SA ;) [15:30] jdoe: yeah, i'd need a multi-user setup. i mean, why not have my training benefit the whole server [15:30] jdoe: haha yeah [15:31] *** vtoms has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) [15:31] fwiw if you get dspam's web thing working properly, that's not bad. [15:31] but that sucks if you have multiple domains [15:31] awww weak. Mojolicious doesn't play nice with taint mode :/ [15:32] up_the_irons: OpenBSD spamd (greylisting+bob beck�'s spamtrap list+dnswl.org whitelist)and vgrep :) [15:32] jdoe: i had dspam's web thing working nicely, but it was pretty slow after a lot of spam signatures were archived over the years [15:33] there's some maintenance job that has to run periodically to prune old signatures. [15:33] I forget the option offhand, I haven't used dspam in a while. [15:33] I have been saying for more than 5 years that whenever vgrep gets too harsh I'll add dspam to the mix but didn't feel the necessity yet [15:33] vgrep? [15:33] visual grep [15:34] I recall inventing that term 25 years ago [15:34] nice to see it come back ground [15:34] although might just be a parallel invention [15:34] *** cmeiklejohn has joined #arpnetworks [15:34] *** cmeiklejohn has quit IRC (Changing host) [15:34] *** cmeiklejohn has joined #arpnetworks [15:35] <<== old fogey [15:36] DaCa: what is "bob beckÃ's spamtrap list"? [15:36] RandalSchwartz: dict shows it both in the jargon file and foldoc [15:36] do they quote me? :) [15:37] I'm officially done with everything now [15:37] your life is over? [15:37] Now I'll just have to wait and see if the teachers say I've missed something [15:37] Yeah, high school is my life [15:37] :( [15:37] oh. not *everything* [15:41] Btw guys [15:41] One thing. How the hell would I trace an IP if my webpage had a poll that got spammed? [15:41] up_the_irons: uatraps in the default spamd.conf, it�'sa list which blacklists spammers caught at the university of alberta using greytrapping (also a function of spamd) for 24 hours [15:41] "trace"? [15:41] Doesn't say if it's distributed or not [15:42] whois -a "10.1.1.1" [15:42] RandalSchwartz: Like, find the perpetrator so one can report it to the ISP [15:42] up_the_irons: bob beck is an openbsd dev and admin there [15:42] that'll tell you who owns the IP [15:42] from there, it's up to getting cooperation from them [15:42] RandalSchwartz: But what if it's distributed? [15:42] "distributed"? [15:42] Like a botnet spammed my poll [15:42] Oh. good luck [15:42] not a chance [15:42] That's what I thought :) [15:42] you *did* have a captcha, right? [15:42] uhm.. yeah... ofcourse :P [15:43] if not, there's your lesson for next time [15:43] It's an assignment, RandalSchwartz [15:43] what's an assignment? [15:43] Like.. school stuff [15:43] I mean, how is a poll an assignment? [15:43] DaCa: oh oik [15:43] The school assignment is about tracing IP-addresses [15:43] *ok [15:43] ahh. [15:44] so the answer is... "too bad" [15:44] botnets are highly sophisticated now [15:44] that's why spam is outta control [15:44] DaCa: default spamd.conf in which openbsd version? I have 4.6 and there is no /etc/spamd.conf.. [15:45] The assignment is: "Your boss have discovered a spam attack on your companys poll on the website. And now he wants to get the perpetrator (Is it called perpetrator, btw?). How do one do that? How do you get the IP? How do you trace an IP once you got it?" [15:45] I'm saying "Check the logs, do an whois " [15:45] But.. WHY IS THIS A GROUP ASSIGNMENT? [15:45] dxtr: yeah, that's pretty much the basics [15:45] oh - that's not a botnet [15:45] that's a single IP [15:46] up_the_irons: isn't it in /etc/mail? [15:46] and yes, whois -a that.addr [15:46] and follow up with the owners of that IP [15:46] RandalSchwartz: It doesn't specifically say so :p [15:46] well - in one case, you might have a solution [15:46] in another, you can't [15:46] which do you think you got assigned? :) [15:46] But still, I just asked if there's a way to find some source if it's distributed [15:46] unless he's just trying to tweak you [15:46] :) [15:46] DaCa: oh duh, thanks! [15:47] * RandalSchwartz goes back to worrying about whether he's presenting at LA.pm tonight or not [15:47] But how do these botnet guys sometimes get caught anway [15:47] anyway* [15:47] the botnet people have to convert on the other side [15:47] it's like drug running [15:47] at some point, you have to connect with customers [15:47] and exchange things for money [15:47] Ah, right [15:48] botnet operations are highly sophisticated and international, just like drug trafficking [15:48] but it all comes down to making a profit [15:48] and that's nearly always the weak link [15:48] or you have someone in your org that turns on you [15:48] cool [15:48] because you piss them off or don't pay them on time [15:49] so yeah, the parallels are quite obvious once you think about it [15:49] the only difference is the actual product [15:49] since the product in both cases is pretty much internationally illegal, although to varying degrees [15:49] Yeah [15:50] So that's how they get caught. I thought it was years and years of international investigation after a DDoS that leads to a conviction [15:50] :p [15:50] and to report the sophistication of these guys... their command-and-contact domain names are often based on the tweeting trends list [15:50] like, pseudo-randomness? [15:50] as in... a bot wakes up, pulls the tweeting trends, computes a hash value from that, contacts hashvalue.org [15:50] and gets its next instruction [15:51] it's hard to get in the middle of that [15:51] :D [15:51] especially when a successful contact will then transmit a new hashvalue computation [15:51] so if you haven't been in touch from the beginning, good luck [15:52] : [15:52] :) [15:52] as I said - sophisticated stuff [15:52] By the way, RandalSchwartz. Speaking of FLOSS weekly [15:52] Downloaded episode 120 - and that guy in the beginning is hot! Anyway, do you have a way of like.. downloading EVERY episode? [15:52] Or do I have to click through every single episode? :D [15:53] No, I can't watch one episode. I'll have to see every one! [15:54] pull down the RSS feed [15:55] it has the most recent 20 eps on it [15:55] rght [15:55] Right* [15:55] ryan or aaron? [15:55] huh+ [15:55] "guy in the beginning" [15:56] you, smartass [15:56] uh... not sure I like being called "hot", unless you happen to be female. [15:56] I was kind of joking.. You know..? Fun..? [15:56] that...comes across weird. please don't do that. [15:57] :D [15:57] That usually happens around me [15:57] then again, you're in high school... still not adjusted. :) [15:57] To be honest I think it's cultural. [15:57] quite possibly [15:58] "hot" has to come from MOTAS for us [15:58] and if not from MOTAS, we object [15:58] MOTAS? [15:58] member of the appropriate sex [15:58] Haha [15:58] Here we laugh about it :P [15:59] yeah - definitely cultural then [15:59] just beware when dealing with us crazy americans [16:00] We usually say that when, for example, someone's on TV. Either "God that guy is hot/whatever" or the opposite [16:00] someone = someone we know [16:00] If we say the positive we usually have sarcasm in the voice though [16:01] So.. Yeah.. I guess it's cultural :P [16:01] yeah - that doesn't come through either [16:01] if you had smileyfaced "hot", I might have let it slip [16:02] it's why the smiley was invented [16:02] sarcasm doesn't come through in teext [16:02] You never nkow [16:02] know* [16:04] Oh... I know. Believe me... I know. :) [16:04] Haha [16:06] http://imgur.com/gallery/9AKYl hmm [16:09] *** schmir has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [16:15] RandalSchwartz: you're a cranky old perl guy, can you weigh in on something for me? [16:16] I'm more than cranky about Perl [16:16] I have a wide range of cranks :) [16:17] taint mode in cgi: useful, unnecessary, or somewhere in between? [16:17] Yes. [16:17] unhelpful response ;) [16:17] too broad a question [16:17] so if you give me a question that hasn't had quantum collapse, I respond likewise :) [16:18] I'm talking with the Mojolicious developers. I noticed that their module does not play nice with -T and found a reference to a mailing list discussion on a list that no longer exists, so I went to ask why it's broken and if it's going to stay that way or if someone's working on it, or... [16:18] ... and I'm being told that -T for CGI is silly and why on earth would you want that, and so on and so forth. [16:19] the problem is that it's horrible for absolute beginners, because they then cut-n-paste the code that untaints everything [16:19] including some babble I don't fully understand about how "parsers" automatically untaint everything. When pressed on what "parsers" covers I got "HTTP, CGI, PSGI, chunked" etc. [16:19]