#arpnetworks 2010-05-04,Tue

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Who	What	When
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Wraithan	Well I am sort of in my system lol kernel doesn't seem to provide virtio out of box but I got my bootloader setup right... so now it is just a matter of getting my kernel setup righ	[02:40]
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Wraithan	on my ARP vps sort of :) exit	[04:00]
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Wraithan	kernels take entirely too long to compile	[04:11]
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cedwards	Wraithan: bummer	[05:37]
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Wraithan	Well I am on my ARP vps, chrooted in from the liveCD and it is running fine lol Hopefully I'll hace an hour or two tonight to get it working the rest of the way	[09:14]
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wizzo`s_fizzo	Jeez you guys talk too much, I can hardly keep up with the conversations slow it down already!	[12:21]
cedwards	sorry :(	[12:22]
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Wraithan	forgot I changed my nick <.<	[12:24]
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BarberRonny	a whoops	[13:41]
dxtr	Uhm. Why did this ice cream taste like snus? That That's horrible	[13:45]
mike-burns	What's nu?	[13:46]
dxtr	Oh, you're american? :D But you have snus in the states nowadays http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snus	[13:46]
mike-burns	Ha, I assumed you were making a pun along the likes of "my roommate is wearing her updog around the apartment".	[13:47]
CESSMASTER	Uhm. Why did this ice cream taste like anus?	[13:47]
dxtr	Wat?	[13:47]
CESSMASTER	But you have anus in the states nowadays	[13:47]
dxtr	CESSMASTER: Perhaps you had it in your anus?	[13:48]
CESSMASTER	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anus	[13:48]
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mike-burns	Haha.	[13:48]
CESSMASTER	nsfw probably oh, not anymore	[13:48]
dxtr	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_anus :D	[13:48]
CESSMASTER	there used to be an actual photo of a human anus	[13:48]
dxtr	There are two nowadays Didn't you see the discussion about that?	[13:49]
CESSMASTER	no	[13:49]
dxtr	Some people didn't want a shaved ass because it didn't look natural And some didn't want a male anus	[13:49]
CESSMASTER	hahahahhahaha	[13:49]
dxtr	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Human_anus There :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Human_anus#Endless_image_contention More like that That would bring it around full circle to where it's been a couple of years. We had a cropped, shaved, bleached porn-anus in this article for a while, it was determined unsuitable (and a copyvio) and replaced with the current hairy man-hole. All we need is a neutral-looking and not-overly-hairy, suitable for an anatomy text I have actually considered taking a photo of my own anus for the article (as far as I am aware, mine is pretty typical) just to put an end to this. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be able to hold the camera at the right angle to get a decent shot. :( If you take a close look at the 'porn' anus in hi-res, it doesn't actually appear to have been shaved or bleached. Yeah I think you get it please remove picture of male anus and replace with female anus Fartbarker 22:44, 28 January 2007 (UTC	[13:50]
CESSMASTER	hahahahahahahaha	[13:52]
dxtr	This arguement is ridiculous....if you don't want to see an anus, be it male or female or hairy or not so hairy...um don't come to this page? Yeah...now if you want to see a female anus to masturbate to for whatever reason, how bout you go find a porn site? The gender of the person with the anus does not matter. An anus is an anus is anus. Deal with it. Don't want to see it, ... ... don't go to the anus page... Are aliens coming to this page? Anyone from the animal kingdom who isn't human? We don't need photos of anuses, ok? We just simply do not. It's gratuitous, inappropriate, nearing pornographic and quite ridiculous. Everyone has an anus and they know what it looks like. If an image is absolutely necessary, i think i diagram or drawing would suffice. 71.232.108.228 07:01, 23 ...	[13:52]
Wraithan	Er	[13:53]
dxtr	... March 2007 (UTC) Hahahaha	[13:53]
Wraithan	if folks want to read it they can go to the page.	[13:53]
dxtr	They can?	[13:54]
CESSMASTER	http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sex_drawings_by_User:Seedfeeder this is what i was talking about half of these aren't even linked to a wikipedia article	[13:54]
jdoe	they probably were. after they went through the first copyright violation/sharia law purge, they replaced a lot of the sex article pictures with drawings (and occasionally in non-human flesh tones) I think they stopped doing that.	[13:54]
dxtr	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Human_anus#Artificial_anus <- Haha, read that :D	[13:56]
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Wraithan	http://www.wolfire.com/humble	[14:07]
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jdoe	jdoe stabs dns.	[14:31]
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cedwards	cedwards steps away for the afternoon and comes back to talk of anuses. wtf.	[16:37]
Wraithan	A thing that is a bit problematic (could just be configuration stuff from what I am reading) is that my VPS is only showing one core?	[16:41]
cedwards	Wraithan: both of mine show the same	[16:42]
Wraithan	:( The dual 4 core servers made me think I'd have multiple cores, even if it was 2-4 (4 seems standard these days for VPS)	[16:43]
william```	don't arpnetworks vps only have a single cpu?	[16:45]
Wraithan	Yeah, just found that out which could be problematic	[16:45]
william```	little weird if you're used to linode/slicehost :) unfortunately, neither of those offer bsd...	[16:46]
Wraithan	Wraithan doesn't care about the BSD offerings lol up_the_irons: So the servers are multi-core but the VPSs only get access to a single core?	[16:46]
	brb	[16:52]
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cedwards	I understand it as a single, dedicated core whereas the others are multiple, shared cores.	[16:56]
Wraithan	Yes, but having it as a single rather than multiple means if I go to compile a package I could bring my webservices to a halt/crawl	[17:01]
william```	you can nice the compilation process give it a priority of 20	[17:02]
Wraithan	I have to make sure I do anything that could be detrimental as nice, which is a hassle	[17:02]
jdoe	it's not a dedicated core, is it?	[17:02]
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jdoe	presumably it's a ... single core that you get some slice of as determined by scheduling on the host.	[17:02]
Wraithan	william```: Yes I know but I compile packages weekly, among other things that are CPU intensive	[17:02]
william```	why do you have to compile things weekly? o.O are you running gentoo or something? :)	[17:03]
Wraithan	No, but I run cutting edge on several packages	[17:04]
jdoe	... or freebsd, or openbsd ;)	[17:04]
Wraithan	Every 3 weeks is a new kernel release, that I will have to compile, I am running trunk of python 2.7 for a couple of my projects, and trunk of python 3.2 for some other stuff	[17:06]
william```	ouch	[17:06]
Wraithan	Once 2.7 is official I wont have to compile it anymore, but until then I need to be tested against the latest so I can confidently push a release on 2.7 as soon as 2.7 is stable.	[17:07]
cedwards	I compile all my ports on FreeBSD and I haven't seen any issues yet.	[17:07]
Wraithan	Does your system default to nice'ing the compilation? Btw, recompiled kernel makes my system work 100%	[17:08]
william```	what was happening before you recompiled it?	[17:10]
Wraithan	hanging because virtio was a module, not compiled in.	[17:11]
william```	:(	[17:13]
Wraithan	scp is amazing :)	[17:16]
cedwards	rsync is more amazing?	[17:17]
william```	not the same thing	[17:22]
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cedwards	so I'm playing around with FreeBSD in KVM locally. Can anyone tell me how to activate console access, like is available at ARP?	[18:27]
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Nat_UB	cedwards: Think he uses an actual serial console...but I know zero details :)	[18:30]
up_the_irons	cedwards: -serial telnet:127.0.0.1:<port>,server,nowait cedwards: then telnet to localhost and that port	[18:31]
Nat_UB	Or that.... hehehe	[18:31]
up_the_irons	Nat_UB: looks like an actual serial console, doesn't it? ;)	[18:32]
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Nat_UB	yes...rather neat implementation	[18:32]
up_the_irons	thanks I credit toddf for pointing me in the right direction and providing hints / tips	[18:32]
cedwards	looks like I'm close based on this: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/books/handbook/serialconsole-setup.html I can see the boot output, but can't yet login.	[18:40]
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up_the_irons	cedwards: you need to run a getty on /dev/ttyu0 or ttyd0 (FreeBSD 7.2 and below)	[18:44]
cedwards	that might be my problem. I setup ttyd0, but I'm running 8.0. I'll try ttyu0	[18:45]
up_the_irons	8.0 uses uart(4) by default, not sio(4), so yeah, you'll need ttyu0	[18:46]
cedwards	(I'm testing this on Ubuntu 10.04 using virsh console and virt-manager)	[18:46]
up_the_irons	nice should have the serial fix in it then, and you'll have no problems	[18:46]
cedwards	Edit /etc/ttys and change off to on and dialup to vt100 for the ttyd0 entry. Otherwise a password will not be required to connect via the serial console, resulting in a potential security hole. that is from the handbook. you say just change ttyd0 to ttyu0 and it should work for 8.0?	[18:48]
up_the_irons	yes handbook must not be updated for 8.0 yet	[18:48]
Wraithan	up_the_irons: the VPSs are all single core?	[18:49]
up_the_irons	Wraithan: yes, unless you order more ($2 per core)	[18:49]
Wraithan	Ah I was not aware... maybe I didn't notice up_the_irons: would I send an email to support@ in order to request the extra(s)?	[18:50]
up_the_irons	most are happy with just a single core Wraithan: yup	[18:51]
william```	what is the max number of cores you can have on a single vps?	[18:51]
Wraithan	Heh, i use my vps for multiple things, which need the ability to be spread out on different cores	[18:51]
cedwards	for documentation sake: I added 'console="comconsole"' to /boot/loader.conf and made the above change to /etc/ttys.	[18:51]
up_the_irons	william```: 8	[18:52]
william```	so that is baseline vps price + $14 (7 additional cores) per month?	[18:52]
up_the_irons	cedwards: i find it a little easier to just "echo "-D" > /boot.config" william```: yes	[18:53]
william```	cool, noted :)	[18:54]
up_the_irons	np	[18:54]
william```	what is the average response time for support tickets? i'm looking to migrate off of linode to arpnetworks entirely	[18:54]
up_the_irons	william```: depends on the request	[18:54]
william```	root pass reset :-)	[18:55]
cedwards	up_the_irons: ohh, now you tell me. pfft.	[18:55]
fink	up_the_irons: do you guys cater?	[18:55]
up_the_irons	vps reset (format / reinstall) is usually like 24 / 48 hours	[18:55]
fink	fink is hankering for some choco cupcakes	[18:55]
william```	up_the_irons: it requires a reinstall to reset the root pass? o.O	[18:55]
up_the_irons	william```: not applicable -- you can reset your root password on your own in single-user mode -- http://support.arpnetworks.com/faqs/vps/what-is-supported fink: only cupcakes	[18:55]
william```	oh, great thanks	[18:56]
up_the_irons	william```: no no, just giving an example of support request ;)	[18:56]
william```	i'll make sure i log in more than once every 1.5 months so i don't forget in the future :) i still do 99% of my stuff on linode :-/	[18:56]
fink	lamenode	[18:56]
up_the_irons	LOL	[18:56]
william```	they're ok, but... linux william``` stabs himself in the face	[18:56]
up_the_irons	never used them, but hear they are a pretty decent provider probably one of the top	[18:57]
william```	having choice of five datacenters is cool	[18:57]
up_the_irons	i bet	[18:57]
william```	and their support is good	[18:57]
cedwards	they need to move away from xen though or they'll be stuck on dying tech	[18:57]
up_the_irons	yeah, their higher prices can afford staff :) cedwards: yes, srsly	[18:57]
william```	haha, not a jibe, just an observation :-)	[18:58]
fink	if you guys had cupcakes you would leave lamenode in the lamelagoon	[18:58]
cedwards	we've been talking a lot about virtualization at work and I've simply told them to wait until kvm is well-done. no point in starting things out on xen, and having to rebuild later.	[18:58]
Wraithan	cedwards: we are using kvm at work right now	[18:59]
up_the_irons	william```: right, didn't take it as a jibe, was also just observing ;)	[18:59]
william```	:)	[18:59]
cedwards	Wraithan: I just got a Dell R900 to start testing with. up_the_irons: so I removed my previous changes and tried simply "-D" in /boot.config. The console stalls out at trying to mount root from ufs:/dev/ad0s1a	[18:59]
up_the_irons	cedwards: that's probably just the end of it writing; the next will be getty	[19:02]
Wraithan	We have a custom built server, pretty nice gear in it... I mainly just bring it to it's knees while I am doing a naive first pass of stuff though go go 1600 queries to render a single page!	[19:03]
up_the_irons	cedwards: i'd say kvm is already well-done. I've replaced Xen completely with KVM at this point. Things work even better	[19:03]
william```	1600 queries? o_o	[19:04]
cedwards	up_the_irons: we're mostly a RHEL shop, so I've been kind of just holding out for KVM to be provided there in RHEL6 (although I think they offered it in 5.5 too)	[19:04]
ballen	whens RHEL6 supposed to be out? or 5.5 for that matter	[19:05]
Wraithan	william```: you've never done a naive first pass with a ORM, without any optimization in mind? Wraithan ponders when RHEL will die. Wraithan hates it.	[19:05]
ballen	never will	[19:05]
up_the_irons	cedwards: i c	[19:05]
ballen	its a decent version of Linux	[19:05]
Wraithan	No it isn't	[19:05]
william```	Wraithan: i use an ORM daily :-)	[19:05]
ballen	especially if you have a large enterprise site license	[19:05]
Wraithan	It is the reason good projects have to support old garbage	[19:06]
ballen	if you have a kickstart server setup, local yum repos, etc	[19:06]
Wraithan	They still support Python 2.3 or maybe JUST phased it out, I forget	[19:06]
ballen	they're plenty of ways to get around old versions just like you would in Solaris	[19:06]
Wraithan	Yeah, typically it is hacks to make it work on old versions as well as new it makes for shit code because you have to support something so old.	[19:07]
up_the_irons	Anything RH-based gets hacked	[19:07]
ballen	well anything CentOS gets hacked RH is less worse off	[19:08]
up_the_irons	nah, all my RH servers got hacked, i've never run Cent	[19:08]
ballen	plus it has a lot of industry support as far as paid apps go	[19:08]
Wraithan	Plus (in my very limited experience with it) making RPMs SUCKS	[19:09]
ballen	yes RPM's are lame just saying its not as bad as most people thing it is as is most things	[19:09]
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ballen	think*	[19:09]
Wraithan	I'm just saying setups like RHEL are part of the reason why technology isn't moving forward as fast as it could.	[19:09]
up_the_irons	making RPMs sucks, but so does making .deb's they all suck	[19:10]
Wraithan	up_the_irons: that is why you make PKGBUILDs they don't suck	[19:10]
up_the_irons	been meaning to look into Arch Linux pacman stuff; it seems a lot simpler	[19:10]
ballen	Arch is good and yes pacman is wicked simple but Arch is bleeding edge no matter what compat be damned	[19:10]
Wraithan	ballen: http://www.archserver.org/	[19:11]
up_the_irons	i like *BSD package stuff as well, since they are mainly just tarballs	[19:11]
Wraithan	up_the_irons: arch recently moved to using tar.xz's for packaging :) tiny downloads	[19:11]
up_the_irons	nice	[19:11]
ballen	arch server is interesting, but if I really have my choice I'd just pick FreeBSD no reason to use Linux for most things	[19:11]
Wraithan	I've never (directly) used *BSD and could say the same thing about it.	[19:12]
up_the_irons	it's all about taste	[19:12]
Wraithan	Yup	[19:12]
ballen	well theres certainly ease of use and FreeBSD has a lot of that	[19:12]
Wraithan	I said something smart the other about it	[19:13]
up_the_irons	ballen: yeah but FreeBSD is difficult for those who are used to something else everything is hard when you don't invest the time if you learn it, it becomes easy	[19:13]
Wraithan	:)	[19:14]
ballen	hah, yeah buy X is difficult for those who are used to something else	[19:14]
Wraithan	Arch is very easy!	[19:14]
ballen	but*	[19:14]
Wraithan	L( :)	[19:14]
up_the_irons	ballen: yeah	[19:14]
Wraithan	http://www.lessthanthreesoftware.com now running on ARP	[19:14]
up_the_irons	ease of use is relative to the user, let's just put it that way so, again, it comes down to taste	[19:15]
ballen	true	[19:15]
Wraithan	up_the_irons: put in the request for the extra cores :) I find windows hard to use.	[19:15]
ballen	meh whatever, use whatever the hell ya want	[19:15]
Wraithan	Same with OSX	[19:15]
ballen	is my opinion	[19:15]
Wraithan	my hands don't flow! (nor does the spice)	[19:15]
ballen	unless it affects my production systems I don't care	[19:15]
william```	osx is a fully-certified unix :-)	[19:15]
up_the_irons	hehe	[19:15]
fink	i love osx with macports	[19:16]
william```	sudo port install slime +sbcl :-)	[19:16]
Wraithan	Eh, I use a highly customized WM... even other linux systems are hard to use	[19:16]
fink	freebsd is a "real" unix, it seems to me	[19:16]
Wraithan	william```: yous a lisp hacker?	[19:16]
up_the_irons	Wraithan: which WM?	[19:17]
Wraithan	up_the_irons: xmonad	[19:17]
up_the_irons	i use xmonad, which is pretty geeky LOL	[19:17]
Wraithan	:D	[19:17]
up_the_irons	xmonad is da bomb "Powerglove and Sonta Arctica" <-- typo	[19:17]
Wraithan	up_the_irons: I'm friends with dons, go to talks at his office every other week or so	[19:17]
william```	Wraithan: sometimes, i'm also learning Haskell, but i write Ruby for a living	[19:17]
mike-burns	Me toO!	[19:17]
william```	dons is a major dude	[19:17]
fink	omg we have so much in common!	[19:17]
mike-burns	omg do you like bsd too?!	[19:18]
Wraithan	no.	[19:18]
fink	omgomgomg	[19:18]
Wraithan	er yes <.< >.>	[19:18]
mike-burns	Ha.	[19:18]
fink	like whatever!	[19:18]
Wraithan	william```: Ah, I am mostly a python coder (pays the bills) but lisp and haskell in my freetime	[19:19]
william```	nice :-) i work on a large rails application for a living	[19:19]
Wraithan	Though truth be told I like python quite a bit	[19:19]
up_the_irons	lol, this is making my browser barf: host www.lessthanthreesoftware.com www.lessthanthreesoftware.com has address 206.125.170.2	[19:19]
william```	160 models :\|	[19:19]
up_the_irons	www.lessthanthreesoftware.com has address 74.204.234.252	[19:19]
Wraithan	william```: large django app	[19:19]
up_the_irons	changing IP	[19:19]
mike-burns	I've realized that Haskell is tricky because of the non-code parts of it are foreign. Things like documentation, finding a job, socializing events, and so on are very different than what the industry is used to.	[19:19]
fink	Wraithan: me = python fanboy	[19:20]
Wraithan	up_the_irons: linode is doing that, I shut off their DNS stuff but it is being bothersome	[19:20]
up_the_irons	Wraithan: roger	[19:20]
william```	yeah, i don't use linode's dns offerings	[19:20]
Wraithan	I used to.	[19:20]
william```	i take it they're bizarre?	[19:20]
mike-burns	I work on many large Rails applications for a living.	[19:21]
Wraithan	Nah, it was pretty straightforward, but I deleted my entries but they are still being propagated from there	[19:21]
ballen	up_the_irons: you should peer with Comcast	[19:21]
up_the_irons	ballen: don't i wish	[19:21]
Wraithan	One large Django app, many small django apps for me	[19:21]
william```	mike-burns: did your predecessors understand how indexes in a rdbms are supposed to work? :-/	[19:21]
ballen	have to hit level3 and mzima before Arp	[19:21]
up_the_irons	ballen: i'm ready and willing, but they'll give me the finger ;)	[19:21]
mike-burns	william```: Absolutely.	[19:21]
william```	i envy you :(	[19:22]
up_the_irons	ballen: i will probably get level3 direct next year	[19:22]
ballen	whys that, seems like generally everyone should be willing to peer	[19:22]
up_the_irons	ballen: but it's not like the mzima hop really adds much	[19:22]
mike-burns	william```: We don't believe that indexes are an optimization; we believe that it is a bug to leave them out.	[19:22]
ballen	also peer with Es.net :-)	[19:22]
william```	mike-burns: i found a query that would occasionally run via a cronjob on our site that did a table scan of 26 million rows took 500-600 seconds to run	[19:22]
mike-burns	Ha.	[19:23]
up_the_irons	ballen: ah, no. there's a lot of politics to it. the smaller networks will peer, yes, no problem. but larger ones want minimum traffic, ratio requirements, etc...	[19:23]
ballen	hmm	[19:23]
up_the_irons	ballen: es.net i think is pay to play	[19:23]
ballen	hmm, shouldn't be all their main goal is to serve the DOE labs	[19:23]
up_the_irons	ballen: but i thought one of _my_ peers already peered with them, so it was like one more hop	[19:23]
ballen	yea es.net to you is quite fast es.net to comcast is slow which is annoying as hell anyone ever play with GridFTP	[19:24]
up_the_irons	ballen: i might have been thinking of someone else. es.net appears to have open peering now that i looked it up, but they are not on any exchange that i'm on	[19:25]
ballen	yea Es.net should be fairly cool, if you ever need to get a hold of anyone there let me know	[19:26]
up_the_irons	ah, PacificWave was pay to play, and they have ESnet as a member ballen: sure, i will, thanks	[19:26]
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Wraithan	up_the_irons: dns should be fixed heh er nvm www still has 2 wtf	[19:29]
up_the_irons	dns caching is a bitch	[19:31]
william```	wild	[19:31]
up_the_irons	actually, caches in general are a bitch 7:30 already.. time to go home	[19:31]
ballen	anyone in Cisco world know when the 2960S switches will be available?	[19:31]
mike-burns	"There are only two hard problems in Computer Science: cache invalidation and naming things." - Phil Karlton	[19:32]
william```	and random number generation you don't want to be in a state of sin, do you? :)	[19:33]
mike-burns	Is sin a state between solid and liquid?	[19:33]
william```	"Anyone who attempts to generate random numbers by deterministic means is, of course, living in a state of sin." --John von Neumann :)	[19:34]
mike-burns	Ha, well played.	[19:34]
william```	speaking of that, i have this thing called an "entropy key" which keeps your entropy pool on linux systems maxed out using an overloaded transistor or something	[19:37]
mike-burns	Sounds fancy.	[19:37]
william```	i should get that freebsd driver book and write a driver for it :) it substantially decreases ssh/ssl handshake times	[19:37]
mike-burns	I had no idea. Faster things are nice; you should do that.	[19:38]
william```	when i have some free time :(	[19:38]
Wraithan	william```: what is free time?	[19:41]
william```	what i have too much stuff slated for ;)	[19:41]
Wraithan	If you have stuff slated to used it, is it still time that is free?	[19:42]
william```	hmm, good point i guess it's more "personal time" than anything	[19:42]
Wraithan	lol http://www.entropykey.co.uk/ neat idea	[19:42]
william```	yeah, it's cool boot off an ubuntu live cd, install that, dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/sda then the system doesn't have to fill its own entropy pool with psuedorandom data so overwriting a disk with random data takes hours, not days :P	[19:43]
Wraithan	I never really do that I can't recall ever selling a harddrive	[19:44]
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william```	i iamgine most people who don't do full disk encryption don't	[19:44]
Wraithan	They die before that	[19:44]
william```	imagine*	[19:44]
Wraithan	Ah, yeah, I don't do that	[19:45]
ballen	Full disk encryption is generally a pain in the ass	[19:45]
Wraithan	my laptop isn't a security risk, all it has is personal code on it ballen++	[19:45]
ballen	we use WinMagic SecureDoc which appears to do what it advertises only a marginal slow down in a new Macbook	[19:45]
william```	pgp's wde is pretty nice, too	[19:46]
ballen	yea	[19:46]
william```	i've only used it on osx, though work laptop :)	[19:46]
ballen	yep	[19:46]
william```	the fact that you're forced to use AES-256 makes me uncomfortale though uncomfortable, even	[19:47]
jdoe	jdoe shrugs.	[19:52]
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fink	i use encrypted disk images	[19:52]
jdoe	coming from the dude who trusts his rng to an overloaded transistor? ;)	[19:52]
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william```	well, it's more random than the alternative :)	[19:53]
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ballen	up_the_irons: have you done any 7.2 to 8.0 in place upgrdes?	[20:20]
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jdoe	ballen: I have.	[20:32]
ballen	assume you have to recompile all ports?	[20:32]
jdoe	yep.	[20:32]
ballen	thats a pain in the balls	[20:32]
jdoe	oh it gets worse. even if you follow the instructions portupgrade may blow up in the middle of upgrading everything because ruby is a pile of shit. so make sure you get a list of what it wants to upgrade ;) that said, binary update for core software + portupgrade + manually upgrading the shit portupgrade blew up before rebuilding was successful for me. it took way longer than I was expecting, but it worked out in the ned. end.	[20:33]
ballen	yea sounds easier to just blow away the install and rebuild everything	[20:34]
jdoe	depends on what you've got installed, I guess. and how good your logbook is ;)	[20:35]
ballen	yea	[20:35]
jdoe	I keep backups of configs etc., but unless I'm redoing things I prefer to upgrade in place.	[20:36]
ballen	yea ugh... why is GridFTP such a bitch to install	[20:36]
jdoe	no clue, first I've heard of it.	[20:37]
ballen	part of Globus	[20:38]
jdoe	first I've heard of that too ;)	[20:38]
ballen	heh	[20:38]
jdoe	I've done some HPC stuff before but it's always been same-site.	[20:39]
ballen	yea	[20:39]
jdoe	which, as I'm sure you're aware, is way more pleasant.	[20:39]
ballen	GridFTP is kind of going towards being the standard of moving large datasets around across WAN	[20:39]
jdoe	ugh, another encryption standard... ... and parallel streams from the same host? If your network actually benefits from that, you need to fix your network... ... oh, GSI is just TLS. ballen: how well does it tolerate high latency?	[20:42]
ballen	not sure yet trying to get it installed to test it out	[20:43]
jdoe	what are you using it for, if I may pry?	[20:46]
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ballen	going to see if it helps with moving datasets ranging from 500MB-4GB from New Mexico to bay area others are using it for much larger data sets people that want to max out 10G links well not want, need	[20:46]
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fink	jdoe: no portmaster love?	[20:50]
jdoe	fink: I dunno. I've been using portupgrade since it got pushed out there as the GREAT NEW THING TO USE. I never thought about switching.	[20:54]
fink	jdoe: i used to use it; i've had much better luck with portmaster minimal deps too	[20:54]
jdoe	ballen: if you're just copying shit from point A to point B, try openssh with the performance patch. ballen: http://www.psc.edu/networking/projects/hpn-ssh/	[20:55]
ballen	yea I know	[20:55]
jdoe	no love? That worked well for me. fink: it still depends on ruby doesn't it?	[20:55]
ballen	getting collaborators to patch openssh is somewhat difficult	[20:56]
fink	no jdoe: http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=6078	[20:56]
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fink	fink likes portmaster ;)	[20:57]
jdoe	ballen: more difficult then getting them to install this though? :)	[21:01]
ballen	hah, as its looking right now, no any idea if the server has to be patched or just the client?	[21:01]
jdoe	fink: that's cool. For critical things like package management I prefer tried and true though :P ballen: both I think. ballen: it's been a while since I looked at the patch, but iirc it adds/modifies ciphers (so you could send stuff plaintext if you really wanted to, for example) as well as adjusts buffering.	[21:02]
ballen	yea supposedly it allows SSH to make use of multi-cores	[21:03]
jdoe	still, it's not like they need to REPLACE anything to use it or anything crazy like that. just run it as a second instance on 2222 or something and go nuts.	[21:04]
ballen	yea fun thing is to push anything like this I'll have to write a whole case study and run it through my management, who while have to lend their support to even get the slightest chance of this happening which isn't so bad	[21:05]
jdoe	yeah, but you're going to have to do that with whichever you pick, presumably.	[21:05]
ballen	yea we're currently using ol' fashioned rsync not even over ssh	[21:05]
CESSMASTER	portmaster is great in particular, it isn't written in ruby	[21:07]
jdoe	ballen: ... not secret data, huh :P	[21:08]
ballen	nah	[21:08]
jdoe	CESSMASTER: believe me, I appreciate that. I'm just wary of change.	[21:08]
ballen	oh well it'll be easy enough to test out OpenSSH with and without patch using Arpnetworks, roughly close enough and roughly same bandwidth	[21:09]
CESSMASTER	then you should be wary of a program written in ruby, wait til that mickey mouse club changes some stupid shit	[21:09]
ballen	aren't we just a bunch of ruby haters	[21:09]
jdoe	CESSMASTER: in fairness, ruby is relatively stable, you want to bitch about rails ;) the core language is more stable than python, at least :P wonder how long it'll be before that bites *buntu in the ass.	[21:09]
ballen	suppose this means I'll need to swap out dropbear on my vps now	[21:12]
jdoe	well no, you could just build openssh in your homedir or something, run it on some other port... ... but really? dropbear on a vps?	[21:13]
ballen	hah yea	[21:14]
jdoe	weird.	[21:14]
ballen	look at how much memory it uses compared to openssh at one point was trying to squeeze every ounce of memory however you should know the $PATH is hard coded in drop bear and no it doesn't give a shit what your .profile does	[21:14]
jdoe	memory's never really been that big a concern for me on a vps. 256MB goes a very long way.	[21:16]
ballen	run a few Rails projects, a postfix + postgrey + dovecot mail setup and it gets used up quick however after moving to Sinatra its really not a big deal	[21:16]
CRowen	vps server? stock?	[21:17]
ballen	?	[21:18]
jdoe	ballen: I blame rails. I've done the same (minus postgrey, plus spamassassin), just nginx+php instead of rails. Did very well under load.	[21:19]
ballen	yea Sinatra + Redis backend rocks the socks as it were at one point has postfix + dspam + dovecot + PostgreSQL the first three were using SQL based data for users, etc	[21:19]
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ballen	waaay overkill	[21:20]
jdoe	yeah dspam is great if you're memory conscious though.	[21:21]
CRowen	vps is stock?	[21:21]
ballen	my vps? yea postgrey is better	[21:21]
jdoe	ballen: I think he's asking if he can order ballen: or if they're still done.	[21:21]
ballen	ah	[21:21]
jdoe	total disagree on postgrey though, btw	[21:22]
ballen	whys that catches most spam	[21:22]
jdoe	I hate greylisting. it's annoying, it gets in the way, and it still lets a lot of spam through	[21:22]
ballen	with almost no overhead	[21:22]
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jdoe	yeah, that's why I nolist	[21:22]
ballen	yea I used that and what ever one list was	[21:22]
jdoe	zero overhead, zero delay, catches about as much as greylisting did for me.	[21:22]
ballen	yea, just migrated to Google Apps	[21:23]
jdoe	yeah... that's a pretty compelling argument	[21:23]
ballen	don't have to worry a damn bit about it now	[21:23]
jdoe	haha. I just don't like google having my mail.	[21:23]
ballen	true	[21:23]
jdoe	it knows enough about me already :P	[21:23]
ballen	also true	[21:23]
CRowen	I want a vps server, as I can pay for it	[21:24]
ballen	then by all means place an order jdoe: http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2007-09-17-n72.html that'll make your confidence in google go down even more albiet its fiction	[21:24]
CRowen	and how to order, the site says it is just stock vps?	[21:25]
jdoe	not a big Doctorow fan, but I've read that before. Yeah, I know. haha.	[21:25]
fink	jdoe: you use dspam on freebsd?	[21:26]
ballen	hmm it does appear we out of stock	[21:26]
fink	spamassasin + amavis just eats up memory like crazy	[21:27]
jdoe	fink: once upon a time.	[21:27]
ballen	feel free to email preorder@arpnetworks.com with what you want to be put on the waiting list	[21:27]
jdoe	fink: right now I just use SA because I'm lazy, don't care on that machine,e tc. also, it has more than enough ram for a couple perl procs.	[21:27]
fink	i like that postgrey doesn't use a lot of memory	[21:28]
CESSMASTER	corey doctorow is insufferable	[21:29]
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ballen	hah, I think he's a good read fun fiction for the most part	[21:29]
jdoe	fink: nolisting uses even less ;)	[21:29]
ballen	jdoe what if your list goes bat shit or gets hacked though ;-)	[21:30]
CESSMASTER	his fiction is unremarkable dreck, nothing too wrong with it his blogs and other shit make me hope a bus hits him	[21:30]
ballen	ahahah	[21:30]
jdoe	ballen: no no	[21:30]
ballen	now thats not nice	[21:30]
jdoe	ballen: nolisting isn't a list.	[21:30]
CESSMASTER	boingboing is the worst	[21:31]
ballen	ah thats clever	[21:31]
jdoe	nolisting is when you point your primary mx at an ip address that can never receive email. Just pick an IP you own, reject all traffic to port 25	[21:31]
CRowen	ballen, thanks for help =)	[21:31]
jdoe	very. for anything that doesn't implement retries, you get them... so you get most of the benefit of greylisting at zero cost	[21:31]
ballen	CRowen no prob, sorry theres nothing available at the moment. If you're in here when up_the_irons is around he can give you an idea of an ETA jdoe, I actually really like that any idea if its more effective than greylisting	[21:32]
CESSMASTER	the bbc world news' asia business correspondent is so horribly upbeat	[21:33]
jdoe	it's not going to be better, the best you can hope for is as-good-as, because they both target the same kind of bot, right? ... but I mean, I tried it myself for a while. and I was getting more-or-less equal numbers. ... and having my email actually come through immediately was a real perk.	[21:34]
ballen	hmm indeed just wondering if spammers started figuring out the greylisting trick and started to account for it	[21:34]
jdoe	sure, some do.	[21:35]
ballen	anyone have hands on experience with EMC CX-120 or Dell's Equalogic arrays ?	[21:36]
jdoe	nein.	[21:36]
ballen	need some central storage at work, not sold on the Dell stuff yet but its cheaper that and iSCSI over FiberChannel Dell only supports iSCSI well I'm sold on the openssh patch, on my crappy comcast upload, 249KB/s to 346KB/s	[21:37]
nesta	what ssh patch?	[21:49]
ballen	http://www.psc.edu/networking/projects/hpn-ssh/	[21:50]
nesta	cool thanks	[21:50]
ballen	np I'll let you all know what its capable of doing on a real connection after tomorrow	[21:50]
	so the real question is why in the hell haven't these patches made it back into OpenSSH proper	[21:57]
CESSMASTER	openbsd people	[21:58]
ballen	ah good point, Theo	[21:58]
jdoe	http://marc.info/?l=openssh-unix-dev&m=114334841829392&w=2	[22:12]
ballen	indeed so I could see where parallel transfers would benefit networks that have mutli-paths to the destination	[22:14]
jdoe	I was thinking lan not wan	[22:17]
ballen	ah yea LAN isn't really an issue only issue is CPU overhead of encryption with scp/sftp	[22:19]
jdoe	if you don't care, you can disable it with that patch there's a null cipher you can specify.	[22:21]
ballen	yea, or the multi-core path patch	[22:21]
jdoe	well, yeah, but if you don't need to encrypt the data, why bother?	[22:22]
ballen	most of my LAN data transferring if NFSv4 though is*	[22:22]
jdoe	oh god fucking damnit	[22:27]
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jdoe	fuck you domainsatcost and your shitty fucking javascript interface.	[22:27]
ballen	heh	[22:27]
up_the_irons	ballen: never done a 7.2 -> 8.0 in place upgrade	[22:28]
ballen	up_the_irons: k bed time, k bye	[22:28]
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jdoe	man that's annoying.	[22:30]
.... (idle for 18mn)
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........ (idle for 37mn)
dxtr	I find ballens name funny. "balle" is slang for penis in Swedish. ballen = The penis	[23:39]
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jdoe	I assume it's Bob, Bill, Barry, whatever Allen	[23:45]
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dxtr	jdoe: No shit, sherlock :)	[23:57]

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