[00:05] *** baklava has quit IRC (*.net *.split) [00:05] *** bob^^ has quit IRC (*.net *.split) [00:10] *** baklava has joined #arpnetworks [00:10] *** bob^^ has joined #arpnetworks [00:31] *** coil has joined #arpnetworks [01:24] *** schmir has joined #arpnetworks [02:25] *** CESSMASTER has quit IRC (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep) [02:59] *** Jestre_ has joined #arpnetworks [03:00] *** coil has quit IRC (*.net *.split) [03:00] *** Jestre has quit IRC (*.net *.split) [03:00] *** cedwards has quit IRC (*.net *.split) [03:00] *** RandalSchwartz has quit IRC (*.net *.split) [03:00] *** islandfox has quit IRC (*.net *.split) [03:02] *** islandfox has joined #arpnetworks [03:02] *** coil has joined #arpnetworks [03:02] *** cedwards has joined #arpnetworks [03:02] *** RandalSchwartz has joined #arpnetworks [03:02] *** RandalSchwartz has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 241 seconds) [03:30] cedwards: i'm familiar with iptables, but i have a DENY policy [03:31] cedwards: i first have to allow input and output [03:31] cedwards: then i have -t PREROUTING, and -t nat POSTROUTING [03:32] -t nat* [04:46] infrared: I'm _much_ more familiar with iptables than I am pf. [04:46] infrared: this was part of the appeal though. use BSD in production to force me to learn it better. [05:56] *** RandalSchwartz has joined #arpnetworks [05:56] *** RandalSchwartz has quit IRC (Changing host) [05:56] *** RandalSchwartz has joined #arpnetworks [05:57] *** litebread has joined #arpnetworks [05:57] what time do you start setting up vps' in the morning? [05:58] Provisioning happens at night, PDT. [06:00] oh ok [06:01] i just paid anyhow, but ill check for an email tonight [06:01] ty [06:10] *** litebread has quit IRC (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )) [06:25] *** heavysixer has joined #arpnetworks [06:25] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o heavysixer [06:31] *** ziyourenxiang has joined #arpnetworks [06:38] *** vtoms has joined #arpnetworks [06:51] *** fink has joined #arpnetworks [07:02] RandalSchwartz: have you ever been able to boot into single user mode from the boot prompt on your vps? [07:26] how can i boot into single user from the boot loader prompt, on a zfs on root system? [07:28] boot -s ? [07:28] oh wait, what os? [07:29] I would guess FreeBSD if its zfs? [07:30] that's the assumption i made too [07:31] (though on freebsd isn't there a menu option to boot single user during boot?) [07:31] i don't often get to see the console of freebsd boxes when they reboot :) [07:31] thanks guys, tried them both [07:31] I haven't had my account long enough to need to use single user mode, but I would assume it'd be available via VNC or console. [07:31] boot -s gives me a weird error [07:31] I used VNC yesterday and I seem to remember seeing the boot menu [07:32] what's the error fink? [07:32] cedwards: it's weird, the console shows nothing, and vnc gets to this point and apparently freezes: "Loading /boot/defaults/loader.conf" [07:32] bob^^: just a sec, i'll tell you [07:33] i'll have to hard restart it [07:33] networking comes up, but apparently the shell never starts? [07:34] the console gets to right before MOTD and stop, and vnc freezes at that point i mentioned [07:34] i can ping it, but not ssh it [07:34] in [07:34] hmm, strange [07:34] any special ssh config? [07:34] seems strange that it'd bring up network but not ssh [07:35] bob^^: unless pf is borked [07:35] very possible - can you disable it? [07:35] but that still doesn't explain why vnc & console won't allow me to log in [07:35] that said, that shouldn't stop you logging in [07:35] ^^:) [07:35] ;) [07:35] at that point, what happens if you hit control + c ? [07:36] wondering if something is hanging trying to dns or whatever? [07:37] bob^^: ok, on hte console, i see dmesg, etc. starting services (sshd, etc.) [07:37] gets to starting cron & background file checks, displays the current date [07:38] and then it should display a username prompt, right? [07:38] pretty much, yup [07:38] but it just hangs [07:38] at that point, press control + c [07:38] see if it suddenly jumps back into life [07:38] boot off the DVD, mount the filesystem, look at the log [07:38] oh - you haven't got it set to do serial console have you? [07:39] I submitted my pubkey for serial console yesterday, which I ended up using this morning. I'd recommend it. [07:39] bob^^: i hit ctrl-c, nothing, apparently the console is unresponsive too; no console commands work [07:39] weird! [07:39] if it's set to do serial console iirc this is the point where the kernel shoves everything out the serial port rather than the monitor [07:40] could it be something to do with that? [07:40] RandalSchwartz: right, i was trying to do that, but apparently i can't mount zfs using fixit? [07:40] bob^^: console access was working before this reboot, dunno :( [07:41] assuming you haven't changed loader.conf it shouldn't be that :) [07:41] or is it in boot.config [07:41] * bob^^ can't remember [07:41] you'd know if you'd done it, that's for sure :) [07:43] and vnc is really weird, it just stops displaying anything after "Loading /boot/defaults/loader.conf" [07:43] bob^^: right [07:43] something sounds ill [07:43] i can get to the boot prompt, but "boot -s" gives me a weird error, i'll try that again [07:46] sure you can [07:47] you mount it the same way you mounted it when you were building it [07:47] remember to kldload opensolaris and zfs [07:47] and be sure you set the mountpoint to not be / :) [07:47] Booting from Hard Disk… // FreeBSD/i386 boot // Default: zroot:/boot/loader [07:47] boot: boot -s [07:47] Invalid format [07:47] RandalSchwartz: ok i'll try it, thanks [07:48] zroot or zpool? [07:48] says zroot [07:48] Hmm. [07:49] oh right [07:49] I got those confused too [07:49] zroot is what you get if you do it from those instructions [07:49] have you *ever* rebooted your box? [07:49] and if so, what did you change since the last time? :) [07:50] RandalSchwartz: yes, i've rebooted a couple times [07:50] did you add some firewall or anything else that would make it hang on boot? [07:50] RandalSchwartz: just ntp & tun for openvpn [07:51] how did you add tun? [07:51] i was screwing around with pf, but it had restarted pf and was not locked out before i rebooted [07:51] pf might be freezing on boot then [07:51] boot from dvd into the fixit shell, mount your disk, and move pf.conf out of the way [07:51] ok [07:52] but about tun... :) [07:52] how are you creating that? [07:53] i merely have "dev tun" in my openvpn.conf [07:53] I don't do anything in rc.conf [07:53] RandalSchwartz: same here, i just reused a working server config from a 7.2 box [07:53] right [07:53] except openvpn_enable=YES [07:53] me too [07:53] ok so that's probably not it [07:53] i have a feeling it's somethign with ntp, personally [07:53] it's probably a borked pf [07:53] oh? [07:54] how do you have that? [07:54] I just have ntpdate_enable=YES, ntpd_enable=YES [07:54] didn't change anything else, and it just works [07:54] I'm even using the default ntp.conf :) [07:54] well i noticed on the console (which gets right up to where there should be a login prompt), that ntp can't resolve the pool servers because dnscache hasn't started yet [07:55] oh - so you have some dns things too [07:55] RandalSchwartz: i just changed the ntp.conf to use us servers, that's it [07:56] I haven't even bothered with that. [07:56] the ntp pool is geo-dns [07:56] RandalSchwartz: in fixit, i start an emergency holographic shell…how do i then access it? [07:56] so any old instructions to change it aren't needed any more [07:56] RandalSchwartz: you're probably right, i didn't need to screw with it [07:56] I only know this because my former client, Ask Bjorn Hansen, operates it. :) [07:57] it's not the holographic shell. it's the fixit shell [07:57] I tried the holographic thing once and it wasn't what I wanted [07:57] same shell you used to install zfs in the first place [07:57] ok, dvd shell then [07:58] then follow step 6 of http://wiki.freebsd.org/RootOnZFS/GPTZFSBoot [07:58] then you should be able to say "zfs list" and see your disk [08:00] there might be something else you have to do... can't remember [08:00] step 1.6 I mean [08:00] step 6 of part 1 :) [08:01] RandalSchwartz: awesome, i think i'm getting somewhere. thanks! [08:01] this is one feature (of many) that I appreciate about the VPS setup at arp [08:01] the fact that I can boot my broken system to poke at it [08:02] ok now vnc has stopped responding again…the prompt is frozen [08:02] this is too weird [08:03] i loaded the kernel modules, and then bazinga [08:04] it died when you loaded the module? [08:04] *** ziyourenxiang has quit IRC (Quit: ziyourenxiang) [08:04] ah, i sent a break character, now it's restarting the shell [08:04] sorry i false alarm i guess? the shell became unresponsible [08:05] responsive* [08:06] I seem to remember also needing to type that LD_LIBRARY_PATH export too [08:06] because the shell you're using is linked against the dvd [08:06] but now you're mounting a new file for / [08:06] I *do* know there's a way to do this. sorry for not remembering better. [08:07] RandalSchwartz: i can't even type anything or access my shell, i guess i'll hard restart [08:07] this is too weird [08:07] thanks for your help [08:08] yes - try export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/mnt2/lib before you kldload [08:08] and it might be that zfs is now taking time to ensure the disk is ok or something [08:08] so boot to the fixit shell, set your library path [08:08] then invoke the two kldload [08:08] ok cool [08:09] at that point, the zfs command should work [10:35] hey RandalSchwartz [10:35] hey fink [10:35] i finally got into single user mode! [10:35] yeah? [10:35] what was the trick? [10:44] i mounted everything with `/sbin/zfs mount -va` or `/sbin/zfs mount -va -o rw`, but when i try to backup my rc.conf, it tells me "Read-only file system" [10:44] the trick was restarting from the dvd, and then watching the console; i'm in the console now [10:45] for some bizarre reason, the console was not responding when starting straight from disk [10:59] *** toddf has quit IRC (*.net *.split) [11:05] *** toddf has joined #arpnetworks [11:05] *** jordan.freenode.net sets mode: +o toddf [11:09] anybody get this error in dmesg: "atrtc0: Warning: Couldn't map Interrupt." [11:12] how can I solve this error within my jails? 'The search target requires INDEX-8. Please run make index or make fetchindex.' [11:35] * fink is going crazy [11:36] RandalSchwartz: i can't figure out how to mount the root part of zfsroot, while in fixit mode [11:37] 'zpool import -f -R /mnt zroot' just gets me /var & /usr [11:48] that's a legacy mount [11:48] you need to give it a mount point [11:48] fink - still there? [11:48] hey, yea [11:48] now i'm back in single user ;) trying to figure out ed [11:49] zfs set mountpoint=/zroot zroot [11:49] that'll mount it to /zroot [11:49] remember to "set mountpoint=legacy" before rebooting [11:50] ah ok, thanks [12:13] placed my order :) [12:32] *** litebread has joined #arpnetworks [12:32] hello [12:32] ive placed my order 8 hours ago and still never got an initial email sent [12:44] litebread: it took about 2 days for mine [12:45] RandalSchwartz: thanks for your help; i used sed to edit rc.conf, and turned off pf, openvpn, and ntpd…still no login shell though! [12:52] *** CESSMASTER has joined #arpnetworks [12:54] could i have broken something in regards to consoles… [12:54] fink 2 days to be setup? [12:54] litebread: more like 1.6 [12:55] what? i heard someone say same day [12:55] idk that [12:55] fink - sorry to hear [12:55] im still keepin it, but i wonder if you can pay extra for a quicker hookup [12:55] it has to be something you did recently [12:55] find /zroot -mtime -2 -print :) [12:56] have you guys seen any admin in the last hour? [13:00] Nope. [13:07] sometimes my console just freezes randomly :( and i have to reboot the vps [13:10] oh [13:12] is there something that i could have done to make both vnc & the console freeze? [13:12] mike-burns do you know if there is an extra fee payable for setup times? [13:13] fink: the only time thats happened to me, i installed an experimental kernel [13:14] litebread: I'm just a customer, not an admin. I also don't know what the current setup process is like, sorry. [13:14] oh ok, ty tho mike-burns [13:39] I'm fully migrated to nsd and unbound now :D [13:39] hi litebread [13:39] dxtr: bsd? [13:39] cedwards: Yeah [13:39] Or wait [13:39] Wat? [13:40] Yes, I'm running FreeBSD and OpenBSD. But I still migrated to nsd and unbound [13:40] ohh, nsd. I was thinking you fat-fingered bsd. n being just next to b afterall. [13:41] Maybe I'm using dvorak!? ;) [13:41] i am [13:42] :( [13:42] i've been qwerty-free since 2007 [13:43] I tried migrating around that time too but thought "Fuck this" when I couldn't type with the keyboards at school anymore [13:50] I rarely use any machines other than my own [13:51] *** damn has joined #arpnetworks [13:51] *** damn is now known as Guest49021 [13:54] *** litebread has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) [13:54] RandalSchwartz: wow. that took all day. i have ssh back [13:54] RandalSchwartz: thanks so much for your help [13:54] i still have no clue what went wrong; just turned off a bunch of stuff [13:54] time to sleep [13:55] *** fink has quit IRC (Quit: fink) [14:18] *** Guest49021 has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [14:19] *** vtoms has left [14:19] *** litebread has joined #arpnetworks [14:25] *** schmir has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) [14:53] litebread: you should have got an order confirmation email, they are sent immediately. check your spam folder. [14:55] hi up_the_irons :) [14:56] cd $meeting [14:56] :o [15:03] cedwards: you use dvorak? [15:04] infrared: I do. [15:05] why? [15:05] i've thought about converting to maybe help with the pain in my hands [15:05] I used to get wrist and hand pain quite frequently. [15:06] how long did it take to get comfortable? [15:06] and do you program? [15:06] i'm not sure i could re-train away from qwerty now [15:06] at first I figured I'd switch because a friend was, and he won me over with some technical benefits (mostly numbers and stats). [15:06] i have to say though, the #1 reason I use it now is that I haven't had wrist/hand pain in 3yrs since switching! [15:06] really?! [15:06] it tooks about 3 weeks to be back to my previous speed on qwerty, and let me tell you it can be a rough three weeks. [15:07] i tried for a half hour.. i got so frustrated i couldn't even login :( [15:07] honestly, no more wrist pain and I type at minimum 8hrs a day, every day. [15:07] do you program? [15:07] i don't like where the { } are on dvorak [15:07] i was thinking of getting a das keyboard [15:08] (the totally blank one) [15:08] oh wait { } didn't move (i think) [15:08] I can't rationalize the cost (I have three kids..), but I'd *love* one of those keyboards. [15:09] infrared: I don't program, much. I do a good amount of bash scripting and I also teach PHP as a cont. ed course [15:09] but it isn't my full-time gig. I'm a sysadmin, so its a lot of ssh here and there, commands, etc. [15:09] yeah.. i'm a sys admin, and try to do perl whenever i have time [15:09] up_the_irons [15:10] ty i found it in the blocked folder [15:10] the {} doesn't really bug me. what gets me is l and / ( p [ ) [15:10] spam caught it? [15:10] yes it did [15:10] particularly on *nix where / and ls are so common [15:11] hmm.. up_the_irons, is your PTR set correctly? [15:11] i wanted to ask you what the avg setup time is for today? [15:11] litebread: for me < 8 hrs i think.. can't remember for sure though [15:11] its in your email litebread :) [15:11] i just have a range of 24-48 [15:12] cedwards: while you learned.. do you go back 'n forth to a qwerty to "get work done" ? [15:12] heh [15:13] litebread: I think my new account was setup the next day after signing up. It's really not bad. [15:13] infrared: no. if you do that you'll never learn. [15:13] oh okay ty [15:13] cedwards: heh.. cause i can imagine something down, and my boss watching behind my shoulder as i try to fix something and typing 1 word per minute :) [15:14] infrared: http://www.dvzine.org/ [15:14] i didnt know if would be you know a while if they had like some places a price for speedy setup or what have you [15:14] infrared: print out the layout as a reference and just switch cold-turkey. [15:15] that should be fine though, if they dont and its tomorrow itll still be fine [15:16] typerwriter [15:17] hah cute comic [15:17] infrared: I think BSD has it, but I know Linux has a 'gtypist' package which includes a dvorak typing tutor. [15:17] infrared: I used that a lot when I was starting out. [15:18] cedwards: i use opensuse.. i've used it before [15:18] infrared: you're a sysadmin and use opensuse? thats.. must be an old habit? :) [15:18] i cant type on a dvorak at all i have an old sparc machine here with that [15:19] home row - aoeuidhtns [15:19] cedwards: opensuse for a desktop? can't go wrong. i'm a freebsd fan for servers, and we use SLES at work [15:19] the vowels first [15:19] infrared: I'll agree that suse makes a pretty desktop, but it's all german over-engineering underneath! :) [15:19] opensuse is a great desktop [15:20] cedwards: better than using RedHat. (at work) [15:20] litebread: all vowels on the left hand and most common consonants on the right hand. [15:20] cool [15:21] im looking at the one i have here at the house now, i have not checked it out in a while and wow [15:21] hah, that's a great comic :) [15:21] infrared: I have my problems with Red Hat, but I do have a bit of a bias. I'm RHCT/CE/CI/CX (tech,engineer,instructor,examiner) [15:21] it would take me sooo long to adjust [15:21] infrared: we're all centos at work, with a few debian servers mixed in. [15:21] cedwards: certifications mean nothing to me. it's what you can prove [15:21] infrared: but I run arch on my laptop, and BSD or debian on my servers. [15:23] cedwards: certifications only matter when you're job hunting trying to get past those "HR firewalls" [15:23] infrared: i suppose. i do like the RH exams though. They do try to make it more "real world" than fill-in-the-blanks. [15:25] we used to cover suse in our courseware, and I always found it a little overcomplicated. [15:26] ..but I guess that's why I like Arch. [15:26] well, SLES (nowadays) is built on opensuse [15:26] it's really nice (for a linux distro) [15:29] man, irssi has too many big depends [15:30] irssi is life [15:30] I'll try opensuse for workstation some day :) [15:31] irssi+bitlbee+screen+ssh. i can't remember life without it. [15:31] what is bitlbee? [15:31] Terminal.app + ssh + screen + emacs + irc.el :) [15:31] cedwards: I prefer tmux [15:32] RandalSchwartz: Why would you use your text editor as an irc client? :( [15:32] infrared: im->irc gateway. basically allows you to do your im (jabber, etc) in irssi as well. [15:33] bah.. pidgin++ [15:33] RandalSchwartz: Terminal.app, or even iTerm.app can't quite cut it over Konsole. [15:33] bah. pidgin is awwful [15:33] no way..i need *some* level of smiley icons and chat windows [15:33] makes sense to me to do im/irc in the same place. it is nearly the same thing anyway. [15:33] *** schmir has joined #arpnetworks [15:34] infrared: What's so good with Pidgin? I mean, it got smiley icons [15:34] I even turn those off whenever I end up with pidgin :P [15:34] I do *everything* inside emacs [15:34] mail, usenet, irc, even edit files! [15:34] Why would you do that? :( [15:34] dxtr: it does what i need it to. [15:34] and I run terminal sessions inside emacs too [15:34] infrared: Like...? :) [15:35] dxtr: multiple protocols [15:35] Bitlbee can do that? [15:35] RandalSchwartz: forgive me if I should know why and I'm spacing, but your name seems so familiar to me. [15:35] dxtr: can do what? [15:35] there's a wikipedia page about me [15:35] maybe that will ring a bell. :) [15:35] cedwards: Some random internet celebrity [15:35] :D [15:35] just a geek. :) [15:36] * infrared prints out a dvorak layout [15:36] RandalSchwartz: must be the Perl stuff. I know I had seen the name somewhere. [15:36] RandalSchwartz: My friend about you: "He must possess a lot of information! Just imagine! Seriously!" [15:37] not FLOSS Weekly? [15:37] you have an odd friend dxtr [15:37] Literally "possess a lot of information" :P [15:37] No kidding? [15:37] RandalSchwartz: I grew up in Portland.. but I wasn't a geek by the time I left there, so it couldn't have been that. [15:39] RandalSchwartz: what's your cpan username [15:39] merlyn [15:39] it was the very first six-char name [15:39] i've seen "stonehedge" somewhere..i think it was in the Moose docs [15:39] because they had to rebuild the database for me :) [15:39] the moose docs refer to my "moose is flying" articles I think [15:40] * infrared looks [15:40] ... http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/LinuxMag/col94.html [15:40] ... http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/LinuxMag/col95.html [15:40] ah yes [15:40] so do you still have root on a bunch of intel's machines that nobody knows about [15:41] which I had to re-read when I had to use Moose for a project last year. [15:41] yeah - I re-read my own articles. :) [15:41] * RandalSchwartz ignores the troll [15:41] RandalSchwartz: "HAHA!" nelson style [15:41] nelson? [15:41] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Muntz [15:42] oh - simpsons [15:57] I've been using FreeBSD jails for a while now and I still get impressed with how efficient it all is [15:59] * infrared is using dvorak [16:00] very slow :( [16:00] you can do it! [16:00] infrared: how 'bout this. I'll use qwerty as long as you're using dvorak. [16:00] infrared: we'll suffer together, but it'll be worth it. [16:00] haha [16:02] RandalSchwartz: not to "be that guy" but, emacs? really? [16:02] why would you want to do that? [16:02] eh? [16:02] RandalSchwartz: you mentioned you do everything from within emacs earlier. [16:02] sure. [16:03] one user interface that sits well inside a long running screen session [16:03] with universal cut-n-paste-n-edit [16:03] and fully customizable [16:03] RandalSchwartz: I request (demand!) screenshots of this insanity :) [16:03] * infrared tries to perl in dvorak [16:03] *** redbeard_work has joined #arpnetworks [16:04] granted I've never given it a long chance, but the idea that it does *everything* seems kind of opposite the unix philosophy to me. [16:04] are we talking emacs or Perl here? :) [16:05] lol. emacs [16:05] yeah, emacs [16:05] i'm not trying to troll, I've just never got a straight answer on emacs vs unix philosophy before [16:05] I don't see them in opposition [16:06] "do one thing and do it well" vs emacs: everything && the kitchen sink [16:06] Do one thing great vs. do everything at once? :P [16:06] I'm sorry. still don't see it. I'm much more practical than positional. [16:06] that's why I'm using OSX. It works better for me. [16:07] Im using it as well [16:07] could anyone tell me how much it would be for more ram on the vps? [16:07] * cedwards admits he's tying from Terminal.app on OSX as well right now. [16:07] litebread: its on the site [16:08] <-- ancient xterm on openbsd laptop to openbsd colo running irssi over v6 the whole way. wheeeezorz. [16:08] sorry infrared i do not see it [16:08] of course, my FLOSS fanboy friends can't figure out why I'd have an iphone and not an android, and OSX and not pc-bsd on my desktop [16:08] to some of them I'm some kind of traitor [16:09] nice toddf :) [16:09] says to contact us for cutomized vps, i found it :) [16:09] litebread: its practically on the main page [16:10] toddf: I'm stoked to play with ipv6 on this new vps. haven't gotten around to it yet. [16:10] some people (myself included) think floss support is a lifestyle. use something proprietary, you support the other side. others (good friend of mine who loves to rib me all the time) use what works for them regardless of cost or free-ness. its a choice, not a religion. [16:11] there ya go [16:11] I am so glad I'm over my free-tard stage. [16:12] free-tard ? [16:12] lol [16:12] I even tell people to pronounce my last name as 'free software' then 'drop the "oftware"' [16:13] you know. the real free software zealots that will all but tell you you're going to rot in hell for using non-free firmware. [16:14] firmware that can be distributed freely that is required for the os to load for the device to work (i.e. most wifi chipsets these days) is one thing [16:14] the source to the same firmware is quite another [16:14] freely distributable firmware should be a given, not a hard fight that happens now and then [16:14] the source to the firmware, well, have fun [16:15] firmware is not binary blob drivers for the os, that's another ball of wax [16:15] if you use binary blobs you're handing the keys to the kingdom to whomever handed you that blob [16:16] at this point, while I generally feel free software is the better solution, using non-free software is not one of the seven deadly sins [16:16] no hell involved in any event, clearly a choice of convenience vs freedom and inspectability [16:16] infared: thank you, i used the email part of the 'contact page' to inquiry about the extra memory and ips [16:16] its a choice, some justify wrongly perhaps, but a choice nonetheless [16:17] personally I find it more convenient I can install an os w/out phoning for a license or going through my wallet to get one, but that's just me [16:18] ohh I definitely agree [16:18] holy smokes im slow with this [16:18] infrared: keep it up. you're doing great ;) [16:18] haha [16:18] teh vast majority of my software is open, but I still break for flash and skype and junk like that [16:19] skype++ [16:20] infrared: didn't take you long to type that! [16:20] :) [16:20]