#arpnetworks 2009-10-15,Thu

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WhoWhatWhen
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toddfinteresting question [03:37]
if the user is removed it gets removed from the /etc/group file wherever it is found
removed via userdel(8) 		[03:43]
I have looked at the code, no way to remove a usser from a single group in that code, its a one pass extermination from /etc/group as the only removal code in sight [03:59]
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Mrdbgimorning [06:37]
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up_the_ironsMrdbgi: mornin
toddf: i think I had that issue with OpenBSD a long time ago, it boggled me. so there is no way to script removal of a user from a group besides trying to mangle /etc/group? that seems frustrating 		[11:36]
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toddfas the utilities exist today, no.
how often do you need to remove users from groups? ;-)
vs remove them outright? 		[11:53]
up_the_ironsi needed it yesterday
reconfiguring some things 		[11:54]
toddfI've asked the appropriate people
but I'm realizing why I never ran into this before
I've always munged directly with /etc/group via vi before .. then I found the user*(8) tools and found those eaiser for scripting adds, mods (to add users to new groups) and removing users entirely
it is a rare day when I need to remove a single user from a single group 		[11:55]
up_the_ironsthat's nuts ;) When I de-privilege users, I remove them from certain groups. I like do it all the time; i'm really surprised no one in the OpenBSD community works this way ;) [11:58]
mike-burnsYou can, of course, script editing a file.
But I agree. 		[12:02]
toddfhmm, seems 'usermod -G group user' should exclude the user from all other groups but 'group' but instead it adds the user to that group only
bugfix may be forthcoming ;-) 		[12:03]
up_the_ironstoddf: yup, it just keeps adding groups, no way to remove [12:14]
toddfmeaning this may change the behavior, that usermod -G .. user must explicitly list each group they should still be a member of [12:16]
up_the_ironstoddf: when i read the man page, that's what I *thought* would happen; should probably be fixed
anyone know what the FreeBSD behavior is? 		[12:21]
mike-burnsFreeBSD takes an explict list. [12:22]
toddfgood to know! [12:23]
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dbgihi [14:27]
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dj_gokutoddf: From a netbsd.se wiki not sure if its apart of netbsd.org, but it stated: Also, the -G option does not remove the user from any groups. Edit /etc/group if you need to remove a user from a secondary group.
It is kind of weird there is no way to do this though. 		[19:17]
up_the_ironsup_the_irons boggles
so NetBSD has no way of doing it either... huh?
that just blows my mind
anyway, time to go home... 		[19:24]
dj_gokuup_the_irons: that is what it looks like. [19:28]
toddfopenbsd is based on netbsd code, freebsd apparently is a different codebase for this [19:38]
dj_gokutoddf: is a openbsd dev :D [19:46]
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obsidiethjeepers. [20:22]
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toddfcreepers [20:43]
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bobbywhow long does it take to get an instance up after signing up? [20:54]
dj_gokubobbyw: 3-4 for me I think. [20:58]
bobbyw3-4 minutes? hours? [20:58]
jeevbobbyw, usually by next morning if its a business day [20:59]
obsidiethit depends on when up_the_irons is around [20:59]
jeevi think he does everything at night
you came here a month back eh ? 		[20:59]
bobbywyeah [21:00]
jeevhehe [21:00]
bobbywI said I was going to come here in a month maybe?
haha
here I am 		[21:00]
jeevyou signed up already ? [21:01]
bobbywkinda weird though that it is manual authorize, slicehost and linode were instant
yeah 		[21:01]
jeevif you did, you should have it set up probably by morning
bobbyw, yea.. i think he's tight with fraud and stuff
likes to do stuff manually
i'd do the same 		[21:01]
bobbywugh
annoying 		[21:01]
dj_gokuhours sorry* [21:01]
jeevyea i know hehe
but it's worth it
i haven't had any issues 		[21:01]
bobbywcool [21:01]
dj_gokuhehe only one issue for me, after recompile kernel :D [21:02]
jeevyou recompiled?
what are you running 		[21:02]
dj_gokujeev: well for reliablity patches, openbsd [21:03]
jeevahh [21:03]
bobbywyeah so what's up with kernel patches on here? [21:03]
jeevi run freebsd
haven't rebuilt the kernel 		[21:04]
bobbywyeah [21:04]
jeevdj_goku, what was your problem [21:04]
bobbywI chose freebsd
long time linux user
just switched 		[21:04]
dj_gokuI never liked compiling my linux kernel, I don't know what the hell is in my computer for sound chipset and .... but yeah :) [21:04]
bobbywbeen playing in vmware with freebsd, enjoying it [21:04]
jeevyea i switched years back but i still love slackware. [21:04]
bobbywslack? [21:04]
dj_gokujeev: boot never finished. [21:04]
bobbywwhy? [21:04]
jeevthat's what i grew up on
perfect, vanilla kernel 		[21:04]
dj_gokujeev: let me find the error [21:04]
jeevsexy
no lame users
you either know what you're doing or you use something else. 		[21:04]
bobbywnot doubting it
I liked arch quite a bit 		[21:05]
jeevdunno [21:05]
dj_gokujeev: http://scie.nti.st/2009/10/4/running-openbsd-4-5-in-kvm-on-ubuntu-linux-9-04 [21:05]
jeevdj_goku, that wasn't an arp issue though ;) [21:05]
dj_gokujeev: true, but a issue :D [21:06]
jeevheh [21:06]
dj_gokus/a/an/ [21:06]
bobbywwhat is the host os? freebsd? [21:06]
dj_gokuuh, I want to say ubuntu [21:06]
bobbywnot of the article
on arp 		[21:06]
dj_gokubobbyw: iirc up_the_irons wrote what I just posted. [21:06]
jeevyea it's ubuntu [21:07]
bobbywwtf? really? [21:07]
obsidieththat seems counter insuitive doesnt it.
s/t 		[21:07]
jeevi call it ubunti [21:07]
bobbywyeah, talk about a bloated POS [21:07]
obsidiethbut i couldnt be happier, for the record. [21:07]
dj_gokuobsidieth: its probably dead simple to get up and running so. [21:07]
bobbywwell yeah for rookies... but this is a vps host.... [21:08]
obsidieththeres nothing wrong with ubuntu. [21:08]
bobbywjust heard a lot from upstream dev guys about ubuntu devs
I guess I should just shut up and wait and see what it's like
:) 		[21:08]
dj_goku:D [21:09]
bobbywwe run ubuntu servers at my current place of work [21:09]
obsidiethpersonally, in a server environment i would choose debian [21:09]
dj_gokubobbyw: you could always start your own company and compete with arpnetworks :) [21:09]
obsidiethbut the differences are just eh. [21:09]
bobbywdj_goku: lol, hosting is boring to me
;) 		[21:10]
dj_gokubut arpnetworks is ran by a rookie OS though... :)
s/ran by/run on/ 		[21:10]
bobbywwe'll see [21:10]
dj_gokudj_goku has only has his VPS from arpnetworks for a couple weeks. [21:11]
obsidiethat this point, it should be noted that all distributions of linux are fundamentally the same [21:11]
bobbywyep [21:11]
obsidiethjust becuase its user friendly doesnt make it any worse at serving. [21:11]
bobbywyeah, I mean I guess *I* don't have to deal with it so what the fuck do I care [21:20]
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up_the_ironsbobbyw: your VPS is coming up; got the order, thanks :) there is no automatic provisioning; guys like linode and slicehost have a few years extra to develop their stuff, i'm still in the manual setup phase. but i offer more choice, more resources, more affordable and rock solid reliability :) [22:07]
bobbywup_the_irons: cool man, I'll put my stock in you for a while [22:08]
up_the_ironsand to all you Ubuntu haters, find me an base OS that will run *BSD VMs better than Ubuntu and I'll switch ;)
Ubuntu is ahead of Debian in the VM marketplace, esp. with para-virt 		[22:08]
jeevup_the_irons, slackware [22:09]
up_the_ironsWhen I ran Xen, it was on Debian
Debian, on a VM, however, runs like a bat out of hell. VERY fast 		[22:09]
bobbywI have run xen on centos, arch, and ubuntu [22:10]
up_the_ironsi've heard good things about arch [22:11]
bobbywI really like arch [22:11]
visininarch is lovely [22:11]
bobbywrolling release is brilliant [22:12]
up_the_ironstime to cd $starbucks && hammer-out-orders() [22:12]
visininup_the_irons: which starbucks do you chill at? [22:13]
jeevwonder why he ignored slackware [22:13]
up_the_ironsvisinin: i just hit the drive thru at starbucks in City of San Fernando [22:13]
visiningotcha [22:13]
up_the_ironsi'm major of it in four square :D
brb 		[22:13]
bobbywwait, so he said my shit was up, but I didn't get an email.......
hah 		[22:15]
jeevno
he said he'll hammer them out 		[22:16]
bobbywoh
shit
is this a one-man ops team?
powered by SBUX?
lol 		[22:17]
jeevhehe [22:17]
bobbywany of you guys use chef for server provisioning? [22:18]
jeevnever heard of it [22:18]
bobbywoh
dude
it's sweet
basically a replacement for shell script server provisioning
or whatever manual job
automated recipe to build your stack
but custom
http://wiki.opscode.com/display/chef/Home
[22:18]
jeeveh
i do everything by hand 		[22:20]
bobbywgross
:p 		[22:20]
jeevnope [22:21]
bobbywdo you build packages from source too?
tell me you use something to manage them 		[22:21]
jeevpackages? [22:21]
bobbywoh
right
porst
ports*
that's cool 		[22:21]
jeevif i use bsd, i'll use ports if i have to [22:21]
bobbywI like that too [22:21]
jeevslackware, sbopkg or packages maybe
but i prefer everything by hand 		[22:22]
bobbywwhat about versions, like you go in and recompile? [22:22]
jeevyep
if it's bsd, i might portupgradei t 		[22:22]
bobbywyeah
me too 		[22:22]
dj_gokudj_goku uses packages then if I really need something not in package form I use ports. [22:23]
bobbywI like ports because it manages source meta data for you etc [22:23]
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jeevexcusen moi of my process for the next 20 minutes rapes the server
i'm going to bench it 		[22:59]
up_the_ironsjeev: probably not a good time; VM provisioning puts a lot of disk I/O onto the system [23:01]
jeevshould i stop
i stopped
should i start it in like 3-4 hours ? 		[23:02]
up_the_ironsjeev: u can start in a couple hours [23:04]
jeevok [23:04]
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up_the_ironsbobbyw: just sent ya the welcome packet [23:27]
bobbywup_the_irons: thanks [23:27]
up_the_ironsnp [23:27]
obsidiethwelcome ping [23:28]
bobbywyeah that's it
I got the two emails 		[23:34]
up_the_ironsbobbyw: oh ok, i had a weird scrollback deja vu... ignore me [23:35]
bobbywup_the_irons: ha, it's cool, try to keep posting my email to the public channel to a minimum ;) ha [23:36]
up_the_ironsbobbyw: i've heard of chef actually; i am weary of new tools like that. would have to try it. i mean, like, does it *really* work on OpenBSD? (claims it does) also, it has some strange dependency i remember...
bobbyw: bah, sorry about that 		[23:36]
bobbywup_the_irons: ruby, rubygems, and the chef gem
up_the_irons: I notice you are somewhat partial to ruby, noticed the sinatra app, and using tender 		[23:37]
up_the_ironsbobbyw: what about the database? [23:37]
bobbywup_the_irons: couchdb [23:38]
up_the_ironsbobbyw: yeah, i used to code rails full time [23:38]
bobbywup_the_irons: that's what I do now, and I have always been sucked into doing ops stuff [23:38]
up_the_ironssee, couchdb is just a weird dependency for something like that
bobbyw: i've been doing ops for 10 years, but got sucked into rails ;)
i was developing some ebay software several years ago, and wanted a better way to make web apps; found rails 		[23:38]
bobbywup_the_irons: couchdb is a bit of a weird dep, I'll give you that, but it stores json, and that's what chef passes around to the nodes [23:39]
up_the_ironshave been pretty happy since
bobbyw: i c 		[23:39]
bobbywup_the_irons: I am pretty stoked about rails 3
up_the_irons: I am headed to rubyconf in nov
it's in SF 		[23:40]
up_the_ironsFINALLY a web coast location
*west
maybe i'll go
i was at the NC one in '07 		[23:41]
bobbywtix sold out already
oh cool 		[23:41]
up_the_ironswas pretty fun
who needs tix ;) 		[23:41]
bobbywyeah, last year was orlando right? [23:42]
up_the_ironsyup, or-F'in-lando
i'll just show up to the hotel, then code in the lobby, like everyone else does at conferences 		[23:42]
bobbywup_the_irons: haha
up_the_irons: yeah that's about right, the only one that stands out to me that people do that a lot less is future ruby
in toronot
toronto* 		[23:42]
up_the_ironsi c
interesting 		[23:43]
bobbywreally cool conf, anyway.. off topic [23:43]
up_the_ironsno such thing as off topic here
bobbyw: so what brings you to FreeBSD? 		[23:46]
bobbywup_the_irons: well, I have used linux extensively, and basically what it comes down to is I like the structure of development, they keep software up to date, stuff they put in the ports tree is extensively tested, the security team is great, and I just like the philosophy better, I could relate more [23:48]
up_the_ironsright on [23:49]
bobbywwith the exception to the kernel itself linux seems to be scattered in so many different camps [23:49]
up_the_ironsyeah, you're spot on there
i feel there is little coherency
with such a large community and install base, there really can't be
people just don't agree across the board
on things 		[23:50]
bobbywright, everyone forks when they don't agree [23:50]
up_the_ironsthat's why we have so many distros [23:50]
bobbywyep
lol
it seems like there are a handful of bsds around but that's cool, I like the way they do it, everything comes from upstream or is patched in upstream, the different flavors are for distinct purposes, but they keep everything cohesive 		[23:50]
up_the_ironsjust noticed dragonfly bsd uses git, nice [23:52]
bobbywyeah'
git is sweet
svn is balls
so is csv 		[23:52]
up_the_ironshaha [23:52]
bobbywcvs* [23:52]
up_the_irons"the different flavors are for distinct purposes" -- yeah, that's really true [23:53]
bobbywdidn't dragonfly also introduce a different filesysteM? [23:53]
up_the_ironsi think so
or are trying to
to achieve their clustering goals 		[23:53]
bobbywright [23:53]
up_the_ironsand come on, who doesn't dig pf :)
i really like OpenBGPd, which I run on an OpenBSD box, for IPv6 routing
solid as all hell 		[23:53]
bobbywwhat is openbgpd? [23:54]
up_the_ironsbobbyw: open implementation of the BGP protocol [23:55]
bobbywcool [23:56]
up_the_ironsbobbyw: for dynamic routing [23:56]
bobbywgoogled it, sounds pretty cool
turn machines into routers etc 		[23:56]
up_the_ironsyeah, they also have OpenOSPFd, but I don't use OSPF for anything
we have 29 users in here, i think that is a record :D 		[23:56]
bobbywnice!
how do most people manage dns here? 		[23:58]
obsidiethim usin named/bind and webmin. [23:58]
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